Video Poker Forum

Not directly applicable to VP players but could be relevant if a machine is too good to be true.

Abuse Lawsuits Test Tribal Casino Sovereignty

  Interesting article. Regarding the card sorting case at Foxwoods in Connecticut, I would be interested to know if the plaintiffs had listed the State of Connecticut as a defendant based on the fact that there was a revenue sharing agreement between the state and the tribe.

I'm no lawya but...I'd think there'd have to be a closer relationship than revenue sharing to get a case about tribal casino operations into a non-tribal state or federal court. Most of the tribal gaming compacts I've seen don't touch on how tribal casinos are run, just on what games are allowed and how they are to be laid and regulated. It seems unlikely that there'd be a claim against a state based on tribal conduct not covered in a gaming compact.Edge sorting, as distinct from counting,  is even more unclear. The latest I've seen about Borgata's case against Ivey is the judge denying the latter's motion to dismiss. Various legal minds have pointed out that a casino alleging a player used otherwise legal means to gain an advantage in a game is wielding a two-edged sword, but Borgata -- probably partly based on Crockford's legal win -- seems determined to proceed.Sun, the leader of the pack suing Foxwoods, was Ivey's partner in both the Crockford's and Borgata plays. So I'd guess the edge counting thing has proved profitable at other places...Regarding alleged abuse of card counters, it'd be interesting to know the outcomes of other cases, if there are many, like these brought against other tribal law enforcement folks. My impression is that this kind of thing gets caught up in band/family/local politics and that the state and federal authorities defer to the tribes almost exclusively. My reading leads me to believe that it's a bad idea to travel outside of US jurisdiction, say to the Caribbean, to try card counting. Though I don't know and haven't heard of anything more serious than a backing off, I suspect the same is probably true of tribal properties.

I'm no lawya but...I'd think there'd have to be a closer relationship than revenue sharing to get a case about tribal casino operations into a non-tribal state or federal court. Most of the tribal gaming compacts I've seen don't touch on how tribal casinos are run, just on what games are allowed and how they are to be laid and regulated. It seems unlikely that there'd be a claim against a state based on tribal conduct not covered in a gaming compact.



In Arizona, the compact does have provisions relating to how tribal casinos are run. For example, "The Tribe may establish by ordinance or regulation the permissible hours and days of operation of Gaming Activities; provided, however, that with respect to the sale of liquor the Tribe shall comply with all applicable State liquor laws at all Gaming Facilities. "   

Permission to revise and extend my remarks: I was thinking about why and how a player could be backed off, hiring/firing/discipline of casino employees (other than licensing and background checks), requirements for contractors providing security or other services to the casino and suchlike. The compacts I've seen don't get down to that level of detail, though I suppose state law that would apply in Indian country could reach some of those matters.

Re: Ivey and New Jersey

Ivey is definitely afoul of the state's "swindling" laws, imo. Ivey is scum (see Full Tilt scandal), so I have no problem if all these edge sorting decisions go against him. It definitely should in New Jersey.

Ivey isn't the only one you should be naming in the Full Tilt scandal Vman.

Had to refresh my recollection with The Font of All World Knowledge aka Wikipedia, but Ivey was not charged (Jesus Ferguson and Howard Lederer both were) in the Full Tilt fiasco. He in fact sued the company, a suit that he voluntarily withdrew June 30, and sat out of at least one WSOP rather than appear under the Full Tilt banner. As I recall he was one of the players whose online winnings went missing in all that and expressed solidarity with his online peers.