Another flaw exploited

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Tedlark
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Re: Another flaw exploited

Post by Tedlark »

I just read a certain Compact between The Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe of Michigan and The State of Michigan.

I can say that there is language in this Compact specifically saying that the sign that tech58 mentioned is required to be posted in every Tribal casino in Michigan. It is required to be all in CAPS.

I can also say that, Section 6(A). states:

"No Class III games of chance, gaming equipment or supplies may be purchased, leased or otherwise acquired by the Tribe unless the Class III equipment or supplies meet the technical equipment standards of either the State of Nevada or the State of New Jersey."

In 1993 the City of Detroit voters voted to allow the establishment of 3 casinos within the city limits and it was determined that this vote violated the Compacts previously established between The State of Michigan and The Tribes. This breach then allowed the Tribes to withhold required payments to the state's "Strategic Fund" but the Tribes were still required to make previously agreed upon payments to local units of government. In another document later filed in US District Court, Western District of Michigan it appears that resolution of this breach was reached amicably between all parties.

There have been other compacts established between The State of Michigan and various Tribes since 1993.

Edited to add: Sorry for the long read. And as always: if you feel that the game is not square: DON'T PLAY IT!

Updated by Moderator

Tedlark
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Post by Tedlark »

OOPS! Section 6(A) should say " No Class III games of chance" and not class II.

I apologize for any heart attacks I may have caused people to have.

Jstark
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Post by Jstark »

The funny thing about that, the Kewadins were originally the majority owners of Greektown.
20191002_011349.jpg

Webman
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Post by Webman »

Tedlark wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:15 pm
OOPS! Section 6(A) should say " No Class III games of chance" and not class II.

I apologize for any heart attacks I may have caused people to have.
I've updated your post with that correction.

FAA
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Post by FAA »

It’s cool to observe that N.J. is being held in such high esteem. I can feel almost proud of my losses, badges of honor. No, that’s crazy.

tech58
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Post by tech58 »

Tedlark wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:34 pm
I just read a certain Compact between The Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe of Michigan and The State of Michigan.

I can say that there is language in this Compact specifically saying that the sign that tech58 mentioned is required to be posted in every Tribal casino in Michigan. It is required to be all in CAPS.

I can also say that, Section 6(A). states:

"No Class III games of chance, gaming equipment or supplies may be purchased, leased or otherwise acquired by the Tribe unless the Class III equipment or supplies meet the technical equipment standards of either the State of Nevada or the State of New Jersey."

In 1993 the City of Detroit voters voted to allow the establishment of 3 casinos within the city limits and it was determined that this vote violated the Compacts previously established between The State of Michigan and The Tribes. This breach then allowed the Tribes to withhold required payments to the state's "Strategic Fund" but the Tribes were still required to make previously agreed upon payments to local units of government. In another document later filed in US District Court, Western District of Michigan it appears that resolution of this breach was reached amicably between all parties.

There have been other compacts established between The State of Michigan and various Tribes since 1993.

Edited to add: Sorry for the long read. And as always: if you feel that the game is not square: DON'T PLAY IT!

Updated by Moderator
Thanks for the info. Ted. This site has a wealth of talented people who know how to dig up such info. . I am not one of them. You are one of the best.

I have been kicking this regulation thing around,not because i don't think the game is square, i have no reason to believe thats the case.
However if the games come in square,as required, it sounds like the owner has still could alter them in some way. Did anything in any of the compacts mention on-going checks,and if so by who?
Players here for much longer than myself have told me that the casino had problems in the past. The nature of which i cannot say,or even if that is true.
If i could locate a regulatory agency i would ask about any verification process.
Not because i have any reason for suscpicion,but because i have a right to know.

Tedlark
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Post by Tedlark »

tech, I'll respond a bit later regarding your asking about any inspections and by whom.

I can say that these casinos often employ poor to very to extremely poor paytables. I did not see anything in the Compact regarding payout percentages and just because the machines may be required to be set to Nevada or New Jersey technical standards, this does not mean that they are required to pay out any certain mandated percentage to the player(s).

tech58
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Post by tech58 »

Tedlark wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:49 pm
tech, I'll respond a bit later regarding your asking about any inspections and by whom.

I can say that these casinos often employ poor to very to extremely poor paytables. I did not see anything in the Compact regarding payout percentages and just because the machines may be required to be set to Nevada or New Jersey technical standards, this does not mean that they are required to pay out any certain mandated percentage to the player(s).
Thanks in advance.
This casino has a good number of machines with 9-6 JOB, some 99.73% DW, and i believe a few 9-7 DDB
We have very good options compared to any other casino in the state.
This critical factor we can see,the RNG we cannot see.
I understand that Nev. and NJ. do random unannounced testing for legality and test for randomness.
Anyone know if thats the case?
If done by Mi. regulators maybe it is reported some where.
Awaiting your later response. Thanks again.
BTW Wildman and several players he knows noticed a change in "the flow of the game" after reprogramming of several banks of machines. I noticed something "different" myself. This is certainly subjective,vague, and unverifiable to be sure. I think Wildman tried to describe it in earlier post, his term i think was "dud-cycles". I called it streaky .
When this was being discussed it got me thinking and asking about the RNG. Some posters who know something about machines seemed to indicate that it is possible to alter it!
Thus my quest to locate "who guards the chicken coop" so to speak.

wildman49
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Post by wildman49 »

Here is my take on the reprogramming of the machines at Soaring Eagle Mt. Pleasant MI.

I have played millions of hands there over the last 10 years.

In the photos below you can see one with words (4 of a kind) and no words above the cards. These are photos from Jan. of this year. What they may have done is reset the card software so all machines are uniform with words ( full house, two pair, elt.) above the cards. The machines play the same as far as I can tell and I can't find one machine without words above the cards.
WP_20190113_18_13_16_Pro.jpg
WP_20190113_18_20_41_Pro.jpg

That still brings me back to the brand new IGT machines put in 3 months ago. These new machines don't play anything like the old machines they took out. All the regular players I talk to say the same. This does not mean they don't pay out 99.45% on 9/6 JOB. All I am saying is they wipe you out much faster then any other banks of machines I play.
tech58 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:30 am


They explicitly state in a plaque on the wall that they "ARE NOT REGULATED BY THE STATE OF MICHIGAN"(there caps. BTW).
Tech I have a friend that was playing Black Jack when they shut down all the tables. This was more then 10 years ago. The Indian gaming found there was Aces missing in some of the decks. The casino played a fine and the tables reopened 20 mins later.

At the Standish casino about 8 years ago, The Indian gaming came in and found machines paying less the 75% and the floor manager got fired. I got this info from a women I work with as her husband works security there.

So they do police the Indian casinos in there own way.

BobDancer
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Post by BobDancer »

I play at casinos in Vegas where you see both generations of IGT machines side by side --- sometimes three generations. I'll play any of them, depending on which machine is open and which one is further away from smokers. the fact that IGT changed the graphics between generations does NOT indicate that something sinister is going on.

I've had cold streaks on all of them. I've had royals on all of them.

Periodically one person runs particularly bad on machines after an upgrade and makes a big stink about how unfair they are. (I've seen this hundreds of times over the years). Others playing the same machine have had normal or better-than-normal results. Just because one person has had better - or worse - results than average is no reason to believe that EVERYBODY will have equal results going forward.

It is VERY VERY difficult --- probably impossible --- for a casino to reprogram an IGT machine. There are thousands and thousands of hours of programming in a variety of programs all tied together into one game. Changing the programming to not deal the right number of aces, for example, is exceptionally difficult.

If it's an IGT machine and it's not in a state that deal unfairly because they are required to by state law (like New York racinos), I'll play the machine --- assuming the pay schedule and casino benefits are sufficiently interesting.

It is EASY to change the number of cards in a table game. Just because a few Indian casinos reportedly did that (whether it was casino policy or rogue employees), is no reason to conclude every such casino will cheat on IGT machine --- which is NOT EASY to do.

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