Another flaw exploited

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Jstark
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Re: Another flaw exploited

Post by Jstark »

Good post Bob. But the theorists will keep on theorizing.

tech58
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Post by tech58 »

BobDancer wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:17 am
I play at casinos in Vegas where you see both generations of IGT machines side by side --- sometimes three generations. I'll play any of them, depending on which machine is open and which one is further away from smokers. the fact that IGT changed the graphics between generations does NOT indicate that something sinister is going on.

I've had cold streaks on all of them. I've had royals on all of them.

Periodically one person runs particularly bad on machines after an upgrade and makes a big stink about how unfair they are. (I've seen this hundreds of times over the years). Others playing the same machine have had normal or better-than-normal results. Just because one person has had better - or worse - results than average is no reason to believe that EVERYBODY will have equal results going forward.

It is VERY VERY difficult --- probably impossible --- for a casino to reprogram an IGT machine. There are thousands and thousands of hours of programming in a variety of programs all tied together into one game. Changing the programming to not deal the right number of aces, for example, is exceptionally difficult.

If it's an IGT machine and it's not in a state that deal unfairly because they are required to by state law (like New York racinos), I'll play the machine --- assuming the pay schedule and casino benefits are sufficiently interesting.

It is EASY to change the number of cards in a table game. Just because a few Indian casinos reportedly did that (whether it was casino policy or rogue employees), is no reason to conclude every such casino will cheat on IGT machine --- which is NOT EASY to do.
Your computer skills seem to be on about the same level as your business and social skills.
Several posters on the VP Strategy thread "IF YOU BELIEVE IT'S RIGGED WHY PLAY?" discuss the ease with which a hacker could make changes in a machines program. "VERY VERY difficult---probably impossible---"??? HARDLY!!!

I am NOT conspiracy theorizing here!!
I am NOT claiming rigged machines here!!
I am NOT disagreeing with your points about normal, worse-than-normal, better-than-normal results and the fallacy of basing an opinion on anecdotal info, and small sample sizes!!

I AM ONLY seeking info. about who verifies the randomness of the machines that i play!!
This IS relative to a casino which has been fined for cheating in the past!! and says NOTHING about "every such casino"!!

As stated a number of people, including myself and at least 5-6 people i talk to, and Wildman and some number of his friends, have noticed a "difference" in second generation IGT machines after reprogramming to probably later generation software.
Is this explainable as normal randomness of the game? Most certainly!! I have seen, as i am sure you have, absolutely mind-boggling streaks both ways and unbelievable consecutive plays. My classic on that subject happened in January of 2016 . I have no pics. so i am reluctant to bring it but it involved two consecutive Royals. The second of which,as i am sure you guessed,was on the deal while clearing the machine after the first hand pay. All the evidence i have is two W2G's 19 minutes apart and not exactly verifying consecutive.

Again let me repeat my quest for info. about who guards the chicken coop?
I believe TED has further info. on that subject and i await his or anyone elses help.

onemoretry
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Post by onemoretry »

tech58 wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:53 pm
Several posters on the VP Strategy thread "IF YOU BELIEVE IT'S RIGGED WHY PLAY?" discuss the ease with which a hacker could make changes in a machines program. "VERY VERY difficult---probably impossible---"??? HARDLY!!!
It is, of course, possible that Bob Dancer knows what he's talking about, and the "several posters" are simply blowing smoke.

olds442jetaway
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Post by olds442jetaway »

Just using 9/6 job as an example, I believe long term results on all generations of machines will be the same, 99.54, but how they get there I still believe is different on the newer machines. I think dud streaks are longer and jackpots are closer together. Is that just coincidence, quite possibly even probably, but I am basing my experience also on many millions of hands played. I am also finding many sessions on quadless job sessions meaning 4,000 to 6,000 hands played on job without quads, then out of the blue 4 or 5 quads in a half hour of play. I understand that this is the nature of randomness, yet this seems to be happening much more frequenently than prior to 2011. August of 2011 is when I started noticing these big swings and they continue, at least up here in Ct. Coincidently, August of 2011 is when Mohegan Sun stopped paying points you can spend on 99 percent machines. They only pay tier or status points on them and you have to cycle around 500 bucks through just to earn one status point.

tech58
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Post by tech58 »

Excellent description OLDS, of the change in flow of the game, or streakiness and observed over a much longer period than mine.
I also agree that i notice no change in EV. I also agree it probably is coincidence or normal variation.
However if a programming change could possibly be the cause, the only factor that could affect anything would be the card selection process. This is in fact something that HAS changed over the last few years!

BTW OMT read the posts, they hardly seem to be "blowing smoke".

onemoretry
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Post by onemoretry »

There are also, in that thread, numerous posts disagreeing with the concept that changing a video poker machine's programming can be done "with ease". Can it be done with ease, or at all? I, frankly, don't know.

What I do know is that dismissing one person's opinion simply on the basis of the fact that you don't like their business or social skills is not particularly productive.

Jstark
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Post by Jstark »

Much confirmation bias on this site.

tech58
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Post by tech58 »

[quote=onemoretry post_id=128338 time=1570374337 user_id=23228]
There are also, in that thread, numerous posts disagreeing with the concept that changing a video poker machine's programming can be done "with ease". Can it be done with ease, or at all? I, frankly, don't know.

What I do know is that dismissing one person's opinion simply on the basis of the fact that you don't like their business or social skills is not particularly productive.


[/quote) OMT i reread every post in the "rigged" thread and found not ONE that featured a display of any kind of computer knowledge that agreed with bd's post about great difficulty in altering RNG in a VP machine!!
Anyone else can read for themselves, Factoid based on your own post in that thread " you had not read all the posts". Yet you found some nonexistant disagreement with the possibility.
As to my comments about the alledged VP AP his computer skills are certainly not his long suit.
His social skills involve denigrating anyone who approaches the game differently than he does.
His business skills are highly suspect for this reason. He is a marketer of products aimed at VP players.
Why would he look down his nose at 90-95% of his potential customers!!
There are some very astute businessmen and businesswomen on this site who i am sure can see my point!
Most VP players are not AP"S!! Why call them less intelligent ,and a multitude of other comments of the sort!!
Even a business with a death wish would never try to alienate such a significant piece of potential business

Still persevering on my original quest.
WHO VERIFIES THE INTEGRITY OF THE MACHINES THAT I PLAY!!

onemoretry
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Post by onemoretry »

I skimmed through the posts in that thread this morning. A couple of posters said rigging could be done. I did not see the term easily anywhere in the thread except in your own post.

As to your original quest, it is an absolutely valid concern. I just wish that regulatory authorities were required to publish all the results of their machine checks, if, in fact, they do check them.

ed1957
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Post by ed1957 »

Didn't Ron Harris from Nevada Gaming rig Vp machines back in the early 90's.

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