RNG Redux

Discuss proper hold strategies and "advantage play" and ask questions about how to improve your play.
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tech58
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RNG Redux

Post by tech58 »

Still trying to determine if the RNG in a VP machine is able to be altered by the machine owner.

Pay-tables of course are subject to change, as we all see regularly, and the evidence of this is viewable on the display. This is of course a perfectly legal option for the casino to tighten or loosen a pay-table.
Players decision to play or not.

However the RNG function is not viewable by the player. As manufactured, the machine RNG is legally required to be be truly random (within the limits of possibility) and one would assume it to be unalterable. Is this in fact the case? Is it in some locked or read-only memory (ROM) or in random access memory (RAM) that is alterable (ie: pay-tables) ? Logic would say that if it is illegal to alter it then it then it would be "burned" into some form of ROM. But I am not even sure that is do-able today, as it was in the early days of computers, with server based systems and connectivity.

To be clear let me say I have no knowledge, evidence, or suspicions of any illegal activity by any casino.

I am not a conspiracy theorist, only a seeker of knowledge. This is not my first effort to find an answer for this question in posts on this site. And it will probably bring out the same crop of critics and
nay-sayers. They have that right and do not concern me at all.

Think about it this way people. The RNG is the only unknown factor in the game we play (and sometimes love).Is it's integrity not important?

OTABILL
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Post by OTABILL »

I recommend this article, albeit it is a little old. As I have posted in the past, VP machines use Pseudorandom Generators (PRNG) as opposed to True RNGs. As pointed out, today's PRNGs are better than in the past and undoubtedly have improved since this article was published. https://cdcgaming.com/rngs-what-are-the ... ey-random/

tech58
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Post by tech58 »

Very interesting OTB. The battle to prevent hacking of RNG's seem to be an ongoing battle, and way over my head.
But for any iteration of an RNG, built into a machine, how susceptible is it to manipulation by a casino,to the disadvantage of players, that is my question. Certainly illegal. But possible?

dinghy
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Post by dinghy »

tech58 wrote:
Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:44 pm
Think about it this way people. The RNG is the only unknown factor in the game we play (and sometimes love).Is it's integrity not important?
I'd love to have a competent senior slot tech participating here to enlighten us, although I'd have a different priority of questions as I'm not particularly worried about the RNG.

Other unknowns are relevant to my outcome. When I step into a modern casino, I encounter machines with hundreds of game combinations on the menu. It's logistically impossible to examine the pay table of every theme and denomination throughout -- each of which potentially has its own hidden theoretical hold setting and/or point earn rate, influencing my slot club return. And then the slot club itself conceals important mysteries such as the criteria for mailers.

Here's a question I would ask. Casino installs 20 All Star III units. I sit at one of them and exhaustively check every pay table. Can I assume the other 19 units are configured identically? If not, what clues would I look for to find the one or two full-pay needles in the haystack?

Gronbog
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Post by Gronbog »

A couple of important things to realize about the RNG and how it is used in VP:

1 - The RNG is not idle while waiting for the VP game software to request another number. It is continuously running, generating millions of numbers per second and the one the VP game software gets is the one that happens to have been generated just at the instant that it requests it. It's like shooting an arrow at a wheel with numbers on it that is spinning faster than you can see.

2 - Individual numbers are not tied to individual cards. Rather, the RNG is used to select the card at position X in the deck while shuffling. The RNG does not know which card is at position X as this is constantly changing as the simulated cards are shuffled and reshuffled for as long as the machine is turned on.

So even if a malicious hacker were to corrupt the RNG, there's no way for him to know what effect it will have on the cards and certainly no way for it to be engineered in such a way as to selectively make you lose more than you should.

Lastly, the RNG algorithms are well known and published and the VP game software itself is very simple. Any attempt to corrupt either would be easily spotted in a routine inspection.

tech58
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Post by tech58 »

dinghy, your point about machine variations can be very perplexing. And the knowledge you seek would certainly be of interest to all.
My question though is about RNG integrity not pay-tables or comp variations.

tech58
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Post by tech58 »

Gronbog, thanks for sharing that info. about the RNG.
Your item #2 is different than I heard elsewhere. Previous thinking was that the RNG cycled numbers from 1-52 and each card in the deck had a number. Maybe an earlier variation but I do not know. Not doubting your version.

I will pass over your next paragraph which I assume refers to external hackers trying to beat the house.

Your last paragraph is certainly rational and very comforting for anyone playing in casinos in places like Vegas and AC and possibly others where "routine inspection" is a fact and is a powerful deterrent.
I play in an Indian casino. I have tried for a long time to find out who, if anyone, has any inspection regimen for such casinos. State Gaming Commission, Not involved. Indian Gaming Regulatory Commission and Bureau Of Indian Affairs, no response to repeated calls and no E-mail available.

So some measure of assurance about the integrity of the RNG would be if it is legally installed in a machine at manufacturer and is in-accessible and not alterable by a machine owner.

Repeating an earlier statement. I have no evidence, knowledge, or suspicion about ANY casino.
I am only on a quest for knowledge. If I had evidence of "routine inspection" I would probably give up the search since no knowledgeable Tech. or machine manufacturer has surfaced to verify or shed any light on the subject. Tried IGT, but bought out by somebody, and Bally did not return E-Mail.

A thought just popped in my head. Maybe Bob Dancer, if he reads this, has contacts who could help.
He has taken a lot of their money though and they may still be pis-d about that. :D

tech58
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Post by tech58 »

tech58 wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:28 am
Gronbog, thanks for sharing that info. about the RNG.
Your item #2 is different than I heard elsewhere. Previous thinking was that the RNG cycled numbers from 1-52 and each card in the deck had a number. Maybe an earlier variation but I do not know. Not doubting your version.

I will pass over your next paragraph which I assume refers to external hackers trying to beat the house.

Your last paragraph is certainly rational and very comforting for anyone playing in casinos in places like Vegas and AC and possibly others where "routine inspection" is a fact and is a powerful deterrent.
I play in an Indian casino. I have tried for a long time to find out who, if anyone, has any inspection regimen for such casinos. State Gaming Commission, Not involved. Indian Gaming Regulatory Commission and Bureau Of Indian Affairs, no response to repeated calls and no E-mail available.

So some measure of assurance about the integrity of the RNG would be if it is legally installed in a machine at manufacturer and is in-accessible and not alterable by a machine owner.

Repeating an earlier statement. I have no evidence, knowledge, or suspicion about ANY casino.
I am only on a quest for knowledge. If I had evidence of "routine inspection" I would probably give up the search since no knowledgeable Tech. or machine manufacturer has surfaced to verify or shed any light on the subject. Tried IGT, but bought out by somebody, and Bally did not return E-Mail.

A thought just popped in my head. Maybe Bob Dancer, if he reads this, has contacts who could help.
He has taken a lot of their money though and they may still be pis-d about that. :D
To BD, or any machine techs out there with any knowledge ON RNG integrity, please read this thread, any lead on where to get the answer I seek would be greatly appreciated.

olds442jetaway
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Post by olds442jetaway »

Ditto. Playing for fun/free at home on phone/computer and I can stay around even. Can’t even come close at the casino by year end with the same pay table. This has been going on for years and millions on hands. I am not saying something is fishy, just wondering why/how as we aren’t talking about a few sessions, but thousands of sessions. There are short term exceptions of course. I would say the most frequent observation is the difference in frequency of quads on 9/6 JOB. One other observation which I understand isn’t that rare. I have had no dealt Rogan in about 7 million hands.

dinghy
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Post by dinghy »

olds442jetaway wrote:
Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:47 am
I am not saying something is fishy
Some machines are fishy, but iirc you've also indicated that some machines pay more than they're supposed to, under some circumstances.

So just avoid the bad machines and play the ones that are boomswitched. Wouldn't that solve the problem?

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