RNG Redux

Discuss proper hold strategies and "advantage play" and ask questions about how to improve your play.
Post Reply
tech58
Video Poker Master
Posts: 1374
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:21 pm

Re: RNG Redux

Post by tech58 »

FAA wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:06 pm
The article is interesting. Parallel dealing, serial dealing, 5 + 5 dealing.
The interesting part to me is not how the RNG selects the cards, five then continuing until you ask for X number of redraws is fine, no problem. The search for knowledge askes only this question: "is the RNG truly random", of course within the limits described before. Or is the deck of cards subject to any manipulation by the machine owner similar to pulling Aces out of a 21 shoe?
Aforementioned article by phnx. seemed to indicate that the RNG, as the machine is manufactured, must be inaccessible to "ANYONE".
Anyone out there with tech. knowledge on this subject?

advantage playe
Video Poker Master
Posts: 1913
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:38 am

Post by advantage playe »

I think Bob Dancer ,a while ago , went to n Carolina for a good play. it was in an article in gambling with ana edge. I think it was an indian casino. as we all know Bob dancer plays very high stakes. So he seems convinced there on the level ! Correct me if I am mistaken mr. Bob Dancer . thanks !!

Gronbog
Senior Member
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:59 pm

Post by Gronbog »

tech58 wrote:
Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:58 pm
The interesting part to me is not how the RNG selects the cards, five then continuing until you ask for X number of redraws is fine, no problem. The search for knowledge askes only this question: "is the RNG truly random", of course within the limits described before.
[ ... ]
Anyone out there with tech. knowledge on this subject?
I can add my opinion based on my experience as a retired professional software engineer with a computer science degree.

There are many proven RNG algorithms which are well known and published. They all pass a variety of statistal tests which certify them as "uniformly random" which means that, at any random point within their cycles, every number within their output range has an almost equal probability of being next within a small tolerance. The particular RNG algorithm used by a given game will be part of its technical specification making its output and programming easy to verify during inspection.

Add to this the layered nature of the design of the games, (i.e the RNG which is always running feeds a shuffling algorithm which is always running which feeds the game) and I see no way to alter the RNG in such a way as to select specific cards at specific times. That would have to be done within the game software itself (i.e have it ignore the RNG and the shuffle) which would stick out like a sore thumb in any inspection of the game software which, as I said before, is extremely simple.

Bottom line: In my opinion, the games in regulated jurisdictions are fair.

tech58
Video Poker Master
Posts: 1374
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:21 pm

Post by tech58 »

Great info. Gronbog.
One question: is the RNG cycling 52 Numbers, that feed the shuffling algorithm, each representing a card or is the deck within the shuffling algorithm? The RNG by NV regulations has to be "secured" (see previous posts for a discussion of that). Is that where the make-up of the "deck" resides or is it possibly unsecured and open to manipulation? A casino Owner can pull aces from a 21 shoe. Can they possibly do something similar to the deck in a VP machine. ie. pull a different ace every 15 minutes, on a rotating schedule, 24 hours a day?

Your "Bottom line" is almost certainly true for regulated jurisdictions NV, AC, and others. The threat of checks and license loss is very real for them.

For us less fortunate souls, playing in Indian casinos, regulation does not appear to be the case.

OTABILL
Video Poker Master
Posts: 2442
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:22 pm

Post by OTABILL »

tech58 wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:14 am

For us less fortunate souls, playing in Indian casinos, regulation does not appear to be the case.
Regulation of Native American casinos depends on the State compacts. As, I have pointed out, the compact here in Arizona allows the State Gaming Commission to inspect casinos and machines. On several occasions, I have provided a link to the compact.

Gronbog
Senior Member
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:59 pm

Post by Gronbog »

To answer tech58's questions:
The RNGs are completely separate from other components of the games. They simply generate a stream of numbers ranging from zero to billions, depending on how many bits are used (usually 64 these days). The RNG has no knowledge of how the numbers will be used or what they will be used for.

For VP, the shuffling algorithm maps the random numbers to card positions within the deck. That is, the numbers are used to select the card at position x as opposed to 1=Ace of spades, etc. The shuffling algorithm does not look at the values of the cards but rather exchanges one card with another based on the stream of random numbers. Once again, any attempt to do more than this would be easily detected during inspection. For an example of a bias-free shuffling algorithm, google the "Fisher-Yates" shuffle. It is literally only a few lines of programming.

The seeding of the deck within the VP game software is also a simple matter of only a few lines of programming. Any attempt to mess with the contents of the deck would be easily spotted.

advantage playe
Video Poker Master
Posts: 1913
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:38 am

Post by advantage playe »

Thanks Gronbog for your insight. Are you on some of the blackjack forums discussing clumping and other topics ??

pokerforme
Senior Member
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:01 am

Post by pokerforme »

So basically everyone would agree a RNG would not be the item in question if it worked as stated. The real question is does the device come with the ability to “pull” certain cards from a deal or redeal when the casino operator wants? I find that highly unlikely but it’s what people are saying by asking things like this.
Can the games in fact be sold where the operator can selectively decide “whenever this outcome is possible remove 4th ace or whatever is needed from the deck?” Highly unlikely but I believe this is exactly what some suspect or are questioning??
I’ve never doubted my NV play because it has been pretty consistent with expected returns. But I have played places where I would not return because of the way games played then I read what people with knowledge like Bob said.

Gronbog
Senior Member
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:59 pm

Post by Gronbog »

advantage playe wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:28 pm
Thanks Gronbog for your insight. Are you on some of the blackjack forums discussing clumping and other topics ??
I am on several blackjack forums, but you won't find me discussing clumping.

advantage playe
Video Poker Master
Posts: 1913
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:38 am

Post by advantage playe »

ok. thanks Gronbog. it seemed to get quite heated between Don schl. and others on an unnamed site.

Post Reply