How does RNG work in 3/5/10 play?

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Lucky Larry
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How does RNG work in 3/5/10 play?

Post by Lucky Larry »

Please explain to me if there is one RNG for each game on 3/5/10 play machines or is there only one RNG which controls all of the games? For example, in a triple play game when you switch from JOB to DW is the same RNG being used or does another one kick in. I'm trying to determine the random streaks that seem to sometimes occur when you switch games.    Many times on a single hand machine with multiple games several games or most of them will seem to be "hot" or "cold". I seem to get a different "feel" when I play 3/5/10 play games. Searched but didn't find the exact information.

cddenver
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Post by cddenver »

Please explain to me if there is one RNG for each game on 3/5/10 play machines or is there only one RNG which controls all of the games?
 
I don't know if game companies have ever put out information on that, but from a technical viewpoint they only need one RNG in a machine, even if the machine is a multigame one with additional games like Keno or video slots.  The RNG itself doesn't care which game in a machine is asking it for numbers; it gets a request and then sends off a number.  In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if I learned that the complete opposite is actually the case - one RNG for any given game company being used for all of a company's games: 3 play, 10 play, STP, QQ's, etc.
 
The RNG's on PC's typically work by generating values from .000000 to .999999.   If the same process is followed in the real machines, each game program would then do a simple operation to convert the value from the RNG to one appropriate for that game.  
 
A game using a deck of 52 cards would take a number in that range from the RNG, multiply it by 52, then drop the decimal places resulting in an integer from 0-51.  If you accept that any one value from the RNG is as likely to come up as any other, then a conversion like this to get a card value means the same thing - any one card is just as likely to come up as any other.   If a value from the RNG happens to translate to a card that's already in the hand, more random numbers would be requested by the individual game program until one translating to an unpicked card comes up.  Oodles of ways to deal with situations like that, I'm just pointing out one possible way.
 
A Joker's Wild game would request a number from the same RNG, then multiply it by 53 to end up with a possible range of 0-52.  For games like Super Times Pay, the same RNG would be used to determine whether the multiplier comes up for the current deal, and what its value is.  A video slots game with seven symbols (say) would request a number from the same RNG and then multiply it by 7 to give a possible range of 0-6.  If there were casino games based on coin flips, those games would multiply the value from the RNG by 2 for a possible range of 0-1.  These examples all assume the decimal places are being dropped after the multiplication.
 
So, one RNG would suffice for all games on a machine.  Implementing and supporting one RNG in a machine is a more simple and "elegant" solution than writing specialized ones for every different type of game that you can find in a casino. 
 

shadowman
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Post by shadowman »

As CD indicates the RNG is simply a computer program. It is started up by providing a seed. As you switch games a new seed is created which determines exactly where you start within the RNGs sequence of numbers. In addition, since the RNG runs during idle times (probably about 90+% of the time playing VP) you don't even use sequential numbers. The number are all determined by when you hit deal/draw.
I would guess the big difference in multi-play is multiple seeds are created when you start a game. It could be one seed is used to call the RNG which then determines the seed for each line.
 
As I've often stated, there is no such thing as a hot machine or hot game. Players consider that based on their results. It has nothing to do with the machines. They are just simple computers running simple programs.

Lucky Larry
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Post by Lucky Larry »

cddenver,

Thanks for the explanation.   Since simplicity is often a premium value in building structures, systems, etc. it would make sense that the manufacturers might have one RNG for the entire machine.   Your examples also clarified how each game could operate based on the number of cards in a deck. My curiosity is based on trying to better understand how the system works and trying to find explanations for what may be just random events that "seem" to occur. Knowing how systems works helps me accept the possible results.

A couple who play VP at the same casino with us have a difficult time accepting the randomness of the RNG. This past week for example, a woman playing at the same casino with the four of us hit four RF in a 2 day period. Two while we were on the same row. She hit one, moved the the next machine and hit again an hour later. Carl can't believe that is random. No one can be that lucky... Well, I know it can happen because we have personally experienced a similar thing happening a year ago. Until you have experienced such a sequence it is hard to believe.

Thanks,
LL

Lucky Larry
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Post by Lucky Larry »

Shadowman,

Thanks for the reply. I understand and accept that machines/games can't run hot or cold. However; I do believe that in "randomness" - a number of winning hands can be dealt in a close sequence giving the feeling that a machine is "hot".

I wasn't sure if the machine would have a separate RNG for 3 play, another for 5 play, etc. Part of my original question was based on trying to figure out why changing games sometimes has a positive or negative effect. The answer is the randomness of the RNG? We have probably all experienced moving from game to game and the RNG continuing to hit winning hands. We have probably all experienced the opposite effect as well.

I was also trying to figure out how to better anticipate the effects of changing games or the number of hands being played. I love playing multi-hands while my wife generally can't stand to play multi-play.

Thanks again.
LL



Lucky Larry
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Post by Lucky Larry »

CD/Shadowman

Another question for you both. In looking at the super times play percentage of return playing ST (6 coin) versus non-ST it appears the percentage increase is so little it is almost not worth playing the ST -6 coin option unless your cash allocation is greater.   Does the ST option impact the RNG's pay percentage over all hands or is it the ST "X" hits that increases the return.

LL

cddenver
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Post by cddenver »


I wasn't sure if the machine would have a separate RNG for 3 play, another for 5 play, etc. Part of my original question was based on trying to figure out why changing games sometimes has a positive or negative effect. The answer is the randomness of the RNG? We have probably all experienced moving from game to game and the RNG continuing to hit winning hands. We have probably all experienced the opposite effect as well.

 
As I said, I don't know how it's done, but I see some good reasons why just one RNG would be needed for a machine, and no good reasons why you'd want more than one.
 
There are times that changing to a different game will lead to better results, times that you'll get about the same results, and times that you won't do as well.  They'll average out, but I think we have a natural tendency to remember the times that it pays off more than the times it doesn't.  And as SM has said many times, that doesn't have anything to do with the RNG, just the player running hot and cold.
 
 

damule
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Post by damule »

CD/Shadowman

Another question for you both. In looking at the super times play percentage of return playing ST (6 coin) versus non-ST it appears the percentage increase is so little it is almost not worth playing the ST -6 coin option unless your cash allocation is greater.   Does the ST option impact the RNG's pay percentage over all hands or is it the ST "X" hits that increases the return.

LL

Larry,
 
As someone who plays STP for hundreds of hours what I can tell you is the volatility of the game is higher due to the 6 coin in, but the expected return is generally 1% higher than the same game in non-STP form. For instance, if you can find STP DDB in 9/6 form (which is quite difficult btw) it has an ER of 99.88% vs the standard ER of 98.98% for 9/6 DDB.

Webman
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Post by Webman »

Video Poker for Winners has the return percentage for Super Times Pay pay tables if you are interested.These are essentially impacted by the frequency of the multiplier and the average multiplier, which are both stated within the game itself if you look at the help menus.

shadowman
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Post by shadowman »

Damule is right on the money for 6 coin games. NV regs. requires that they pay equal to or greater than the corresponding 5 coin games. However, the variance is always higher which lead to both big wins or big losses.
 
As for why changing a game sometimes leads to different results ... it doesn't. Each hand is independent so it doesn't matter whether you change a game or not. Basically, it's all in our interpretation. If you change from deuces wild to JOB and are dealt 4 deuces you will consider that "bad". If you changed from JOB to deuces wild it would be "good". However, it is exactly the same hand so was it lucky or not? It's all in your interpretation. In fact, if you were dealt 4 deuces playing JOB at any other time you would probably think that was "good".
 
Of course, the RNG doesn't care. It is simply spinning through 100s of numbers every millisecond and it displays whatever comes up when you hit a the deal button.
 
I posted an analogy previously. Think of a freeway that runs from coast to coast. At every inch on the freeway is a printed number (which will be interpreted as a card). You are driving down the freeway at top sppeed. Hitting the deal button is the equivalent of immediately stopping and selecting the next 5 numbers on the freeway. You then continue driving. After selecting your hold cards you once again stop and the next numbers you see will be the cards you draw. Note that the sequence of numbers/cards is actually fixed. While the order is determined using a randomizing algorithm, it is a combination of where you are in the sequence and exactly when you hit the deal/draw buttons. There's nothing that can make that either hot or cold as someone else driving right behind will most likely see a completely different sequence of hands even though they are within the same sequence of numbers/cards. Their results could be bad while yours are good.
 
This also demonstrates why non-random duplicate one card draws are silly.  
 
Finally, the seed mentioned above is essentailly placing you somewhere along the highway. You might start in Boston or you might start in Denver. All locations are equally random so it doesn't matter directly but it does affect exactly what results you will see. The starting seed is probably computed using some algorithm based on the current time.

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