Wheel Poker w/Quick Quads for Southpoint Players

Discuss proper hold strategies and "advantage play" and ask questions about how to improve your play.
alpax
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Wheel Poker w/Quick Quads for Southpoint Players

Post by alpax »

There has been some interest in Wheel Poker with Quick Quads by PPP in the past and most recently by billryan on the Triple Wheel Poker Insight thread. Thus, it will be an insight worth exploring on the 9/6 Jacks or Better Wheel Poker w/ Quick Quads. The same technique can be applied to other game variants Bonus Poker and Double Bonus which offers slightly less return to the player on the Quick Quads but slightly more return with both Wheel Poker and Quick Quads enabled.



Disclaimer: The Southpoint Casino is one of very few casinos to have Wheel Poker with Quick Quads available for real money wagers. Hence this will be only useful for players who are able to play there as a local or have plans to visit there as a non-local.

“The Southpoint Casino has more than 10,000 video poker games returning over 99%, that is more than anyone else has.” A quote from Mr. Dancer during GWAE commercial breaks, as the Southpoint is one of the main sponsors of the show. I might have also seen a billboard as well.

Wheel Poker w/Quick Quads is one of the games that fit that description. As one of the top video poker casinos in the nation, I would presume that they also have the top skilled players as well. Upon initial glance at the strategy, I am convinced that It will take a highly skilled player or someone who has completed Mr. Dancer’s video poker seminar to take on this game.


What is this game Wheel Poker w/Quick Quads (WPwQQ)?

The title of the game says it all, it combines the elements of two specialty games, Wheel Poker and Quick Quads. Quick Quads is a game that allows players to achieve quads 2.6 times easier with adjusted strategy approach for an additional credit wager, from having a 5-card result of trips and the other two cards adding up in rank matching the rank of the trips (e.g. 9h-9s-9c-6c-3d, 6 + 3 = 9). Wheel Poker offers bonus credit amounts to the player if they hit a quad for an additional credit wager. These two complement each other very nicely, but I will not know the backstory of the rarity of this game.

The Wheel Poker w/Quick Quads is one of the few remaining games that offers flexible wagers to the player.

Take for example this Triple Play setting. Press the Bet One carefully to set up the wager.



At Bet 15 Credits, you will have a multiline 9/6 Jacks or Better game

At Bet 18 Credits, you will have a multiline 9/6 Jacks or Better with Quick Quads enabled. The notable change is that the Four of a Kind pays 236 credits. The 9/6 Jacks or Better normal Quick Quads on videopoker.com pays 235 credits.



This alone (from 236 to 235) lowers the payout to 99.507% (strategy is less aggressive towards quads) and will be inaccurate to practice should the Player only want to do just the QQ.

At Bet 21 Credits or with a single push of the Bet MAX button, the player has both Quick Quads and Wheel Poker

The Game Returns for each feature

The standard 9/6 Jacks or Better returns 99.544% to the player with optimal plays. An outstanding offer I would take.

The 9/6 Jacks or Better with Quick Quads returns 99.609%, a few hundredth percent more return, but with the necessary strategy adjustments (more on that later).



The full Wheel Poker and Quick Quads returns 99.617%, a few thousandth percent more return, but with more strategy adjustments than the Quick Quad standalone.




Resources Available for 9/6 Jacks or Better Quick Quads

PDF book – A Quick Guide to Quick Quads by Bob Dancer and Glen Richards

Unfortunately the strategy chart link on videopoker.com for 9/6 Jacks or Better no longer works

http://www.videopoker.com/quickquads/do ... rategy.pdf

9/6 Jacks or Better Quick Quads on the Wizard of Odds

Would help the player to learn the fundamentals by attending the August 16th 2017 seminar at the Southpoint taught by Mr. Dancer

In addition, the GOLD membership on this website has training mode available for the standard Quick Quads.

Unfortunately there are less resources 9/6 Jacks or Better Wheel Poker with Quick Quads so this will be a good direction

As a heads up, making the adjustment to play the full bells and whistles WPwQQ will require the additional effort.

There will be no training mode available on the website for WPwQQ, no feedback available and the player must hope they are doing things right.

A necessary part is to find out the average return of WPwQQ based on a 5-coin scale which is needed for some tools.

Most video poker games are evaluated on a 5-coin scale. WPwQQ requires an additional 2 coins for a 7-coin wager. In respect to 5-coins, it will be 1.4 times the amount (7 divided by 5).

9/6 Jacks or Better WPwQQ returns 99.617% thus

.99617 * 1.4 = 1.394638 or 139.4638% based on 5 coins needed for the next part.

Figuring out the average amount of the Wheel Spin

Using the Wizard of Odds Video Analyzer that calculates the return of most video poker games in 3 seconds, LINK

I specified Quick Quads, Jacks or Better, and then used guesswork on various amounts on the 4 of a Kind part because that is where the increased bonus values are.

I ended up with 393.5 which comes out to a return of 99.6209% which is close to the 99.617% return of the game.

Hence the result is 393.5 – 236 = 157.5 Credits average payout per Wheel Spin.

Using the strategy maker with the adjusted amount (I added 31.5 to the 4 of a Kind) Link

As stated earlier, the following offers slightly higher returns at 99.667% (BP) and 99.674% (DB) returns at the expense of higher variance factors with Wheel Poker AND Quick Quads enabled.

I added 31.5 to the 4 of a Kind

For Bonus Poker Players – Link
For Double Bonus Players – Link

Notable Strategy Differences between 9/6 Jacks or Better QQ and WPwQQ – The intimidating part

225264 out of the 2598960 hands have different holds, so it will be somewhat dangerous to apply standard QQ strategy guide to WPwQQ. I’ve debated the feasibility to use the same strategy, but now it is definitive to use the adjusted strategy.

These are most of the notable differences but not each one. The top 3 differences should be made or else you are better off playing standard Jacks or Better on those errors alone.

Difference #1 – In WPwQQ, you may break up Full Houses with ranks 3 thru 10 full (the trips part and Quick Quad eligible)

For full house with 6/7/8/9/10 full, break it up every time.

If the other pair is of higher rank, discard the pair.

Q ♥ Q ♦ 9 ♥ 9 ♦ 9 ♣
QQ - Q ♥ Q ♦ 9 ♥ 9 ♦ 9 ♣
WPwQQ - 9 ♥ 9 ♦ 9 ♣

If the other pair is of lower rank, hold one of them to get 5 outs at a Quick Quad.

7 ♥ 7 ♦ 8 ♥ 8 ♦ 8 ♣
QQ - 7 ♥ 7 ♦ 8 ♥ 8 ♦ 8 ♣
WPwQQ - 7 ♦ 8 ♥ 8 ♦ 8 ♣
Outs for a Quick Quad: 8 ♠, A ♠, A ♥, A ♦, A ♣

For full house with 3/4/5 full,

Break it up only if the other pair is of lower rank. Hold one of the cards from the lower ranked pair to get 5 outs at a Quick Quad.

3 ♥ 3 ♠ 4 ♥ 4 ♦ 4 ♣
QQ - 3 ♥ 3 ♠ 4 ♥ 4 ♦ 4 ♣
WPwQQ - 3 ♠ 4 ♥ 4 ♦ 4 ♣
Outs for a Quick Quad: 4 ♠, A ♠, A ♥, A ♦, A ♣

Otherwise keep the Full House.

8 ♥ 8 ♦ 5 ♥ 5 ♦ 5 ♣
QQ - 8 ♥ 8 ♦ 5 ♥ 5 ♦ 5 ♣
WPwQQ - 8 ♥ 8 ♦ 5 ♥ 5 ♦ 5 ♣


The potential EV difference is 6.66 – 12.255 credits per line played. For quarters, it can be as much as $3 error.

Difference #2 – In WPwQQ, you break up a 4 to 5,6,7 high Inside Straight Flush when a Quick Quad opportunity arises.

5 ♥ 5 ♦ 2 ♥ 3 ♥ 6 ♥
QQ - 5 ♥ 2 ♥ 3 ♥ 6 ♥
WPwQQ - 5 ♥ 5 ♦ 2 ♥ 3 ♥

7 ♥ 7 ♦ 3 ♥ 4 ♥ 6 ♥
QQ - 7 ♥ 3 ♥ 4 ♥ 6 ♥
WPwQQ - 7 ♥ 7 ♦ 3 ♥ 4 ♥

The Quick Quad opportunity has an EV of 18 credits whereas inside straight flushes is 11.7 or 12.02 (with 5 high straight flush because of the Ace). With a 6 credit difference, that is the reason you do it.

Difference #3 – In WPwQQ, you break up dealt two pairs when the 5th card presents a Quick Quad opportunity.

A ♥ A ♦ 6 ♥ 6 ♣ 5 ♥
QQ - A ♥ A ♦ 6 ♥ 6 ♣
WPwQQ - A ♥ 6 ♥ 6 ♣ 5 ♥


2 ♥ 2 ♦ 7 ♥ 7 ♦ 5 ♣
QQ - 2 ♥ 2 ♦ 7 ♥ 7 ♦
WPwQQ - 2 ♥ 7 ♥ 7 ♦ 5 ♣

The Quick Quad opportunity has an EV of 18 credits two pairs is about 13 credits with a guaranteed 10 credit payout had the player kept the two pairs. With a 5 credit difference, that is the reason you do it.

Difference #4 – In WPwQQ, you hold low pairs (4 through 10) over 4 to Flush and 9 or 10 pair over 3 to a Royal Flush

8 ♥ 8 ♦ 3 ♥ 4 ♥ 10 ♥
QQ - 8 ♥ 3 ♥ 4 ♥ 10 ♥
WPwQQ - 8 ♥ 8 ♦

9 ♥ 9 ♦ A ♣ J ♣ Q ♣
QQ - A ♣ J ♣ Q ♣
WPwQQ - 9 ♥ 9 ♦

This is more of the Wheel Poker strategy aspect. All pairs have raised EV values for its possibility to spin a wheel when a quad is formed. There will be a 1.24 credit loss for players that do not. The 9 and 10 have the greatest number of combinations to form a Quick Quad so it is more valuable than 3 to Royal Flush.

Difference #5 – In WPwQQ, for low pairs (2s through 6s) you hold one lower rank card if it is present to be eligible for Quick Quad

5 ♥ 5 ♦ 3 ♥ 6 ♣ 9 ♥
QQ - 5 ♥ 5 ♦
WPwQQ - 5 ♥ 5 ♦ 3 ♥

Most challenging part in WPwQQ, each time the player does not, they sacrifice 1 credit in EV.

Difference #6 – In WPwQQ, 3 to Flush is more valuable than a high card, 2 unsuited high cards, or Jack+Ten suited when the ranks add up to a Quick Quad.

2 ♥ 7 ♦ 8 ♥ 10 ♥ K ♣
QQ - K ♣
WPwQQ - 2 ♥ 8 ♥ 10 ♥

The 235 Straight Flush beats a 2345 Straight when the fifth card is not a high card Jack/Queen/King

2 ♥ 3 ♥ 4 ♦ 5 ♥ 7 ♣
QQ - 2 ♥ 3 ♥ 4 ♦ 5 ♥
WPwQQ - 2 ♥ 3 ♥ 5 ♥



The player is required to pay attention to 3 to a Flush now.

Difference #7 – In WPwQQ, 235 offsuit, a single 10, or a single 9 in that order is better than Nothing

2 ♠ 3 ♥ 5 ♦ 8 ♣ 10 ♠
QQ -
WPwQQ - 2 ♠ 3 ♥ 5 ♦

Probably the first time ever I’ve heard this 235 strategy but it is on the basic strategy charts.

Difference #8 – In WPwQQ, if there are 3 unsuited high cards with an Ace, the lone Ace is held since it can contribute to Quick Quad formation on the draw

A ♥ 2 ♥ 3 ♦ J ♦ K ♣
QQ - J ♦ K ♣
WPwQQ - A ♥

There are many entries in the Strategy Exceptions, but will only allow the Player to gain 0.00009% of EV.

Wheel Spin Amount Odds

50 Credits 1 in 7.69 (13%)
60 Credits 1 in 6.46 (15.48%)
80 Credits 1 in 7.69 (13%)
100 Credits 1 in 9.79 (10.215%)
125 Credits 1 in 14.68 (6.812%)
150 Credits 1 in 7.18 (13.928%)
200 Credits 1 in 8.5 (11.765%)
250 Credits 1 in 9.5 (10.526%)
500 Credits 1 in 29.36 (3.406%)
1000 Credits 1 in 80.75 (1.238%)
2000 Credits 1 in 161.5 (0.619%)

Hopefully, players are not too discouraged from playing WPwQQ, it can definitely be an enjoyable game as it is high variance. I hope I am right that this game is for the highly skilled.



billryan
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Post by billryan »


billryan
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Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:20 pm

Post by billryan »

   Please note that Bob said 10,000 games, not 10,000 machines. The place is big, but not that big. I'm only aware of two Wheel machines, but there may be others in another part of the casino floor.

alpax
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Post by alpax »

Thanks bill. I am glad you approve of what you see and I'll correct that quote. I know how much Mr. Dancer is against misinformation.

I know Wizard of Vegas folks were debating about the 10,000 number as well. I think Mr. Dancer or most likely JB (the webmaster) did clarify that it is by game and denomination.

So if a machine has 50 cent, $1, $2 9/6 Bonus Deluxe, it counts towards 3 games that is over 99%.

onemoretry
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Post by onemoretry »

. I'm only aware of two Wheel machines, but there may be others in another part of the casino floor. I have never seen more than the two.

billryan
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Post by billryan »

Yes, if a machine has nine games and four denominations, that's 36 games.
BTW- I'm not aware of him saying this at all, but if he did he didn't mean different machines. I think they only have about 2700 slot and video combined.

pokerpokerpoker
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Post by pokerpokerpoker »

Great game and great write-up.

Every Vegas trip I make a point to play this game at the Mirage, which I believe is down to one machine of WPwQQ. The DDB is 9/5 - which isn't too bad for the Strip. Last time this game really kicked my butt, loosing $500 in way less than an hour. I got a fair amount of spins, but at 21 credits a pull, money can go real quick (quads).

Interesting about the strategy changes between WP and WPwQQ. I always figured there were some, but I just used 9/6 QQ strategy - which I know pretty well.

As far as entertainment goes, this game and Random Rewards (virtually extinct except on 5. Star machines) are at the top of my list.

alpax
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Post by alpax »

Yes, if a machine has nine games and four denominations, that's 36 games.
BTW- I'm not aware of him saying this at all, but if he did he didn't mean different machines. I think they only have about 2700 slot and video combined.

I also forgot to consider that they might also count 3 play, 5 play, 10 play as separate games. It might have been during a GWAE podcast that Mr. Dancer mentioned how they came up with 10,000 figure, but since I cannot remember what was exactly said, I'll just stick to JB's opinion because that is in writing and is visible on WoV. However, I am more than satisfied with what is offered at the Southpoint regardless.

However, 2700 machines is considered a lot when you consider other casinos nationwide. Most places might not even have the capacity to have 1000 machines. Even the strip casinos, although they appear gigantic on the outside, the gaming floor allocation is small in proportions.

I saw much more people playing slots than video poker at the Southpoint, so I feel the place will continue to thrive even if they offer a good selection of VP.

Great game and great write-up.

Every Vegas trip I make a point to play this game at the Mirage, which I believe is down to one machine of WPwQQ. The DDB is 9/5 - which isn't too bad for the Strip. Last time this game really kicked my butt, loosing $500 in way less than an hour. I got a fair amount of spins, but at 21 credits a pull, money can go real quick (quads).

Interesting about the strategy changes between WP and WPwQQ. I always figured there were some, but I just used 9/6 QQ strategy - which I know pretty well.

As far as entertainment goes, this game and Random Rewards (virtually extinct except on 5. Star machines) are at the top of my list.

You are welcome PPP. I did not know you thought so highly of WPwQQ, I hope you gained some insight.

I think the QQ and WP makes the variance swings much greater on top of the high variance DDB already produces. Sorry to hear about the brutal loss, but I remember you went on a comeback at the later part of the trip.

Hopefully the Mirage is offering a return trip RFB for that kind of loss. I think the standard is 3 nights with $100 resort credits.

The 9/5 DDB WPwQQ on this site is completely off.

It offers (this pays out better)
260 - 5s thru Kings
400 - 2s, 3s, 4s
800 - Aces or 2s, 3s, 4s with kicker
2000 - Aces with kicker

It supposed to be
250 - 5s thru Kings
500 - 2s, 3s, 4s
1000 - Aces or 2s, 3s, 4s with kicker
2000 - Aces with kicker

If you are able to go out to Vegas next year, I think you should print out the strategy and study it on the plane ride there. I verified the adjustments are near the stated expected return.

9/5 DDB - 98.39% which is about the same as 8/6 Jacks or Better (I am a fan of JoB to know this)

Strategy Link - 9/5 DDB WPwQQ

The strategy is even more brutal and will take much attention. The 235 offsuit is still a viable play for DDB WPwQQ. Dealt Full Houses are broken up as well.

I found Random Rewards in the high limit room at the Tropicana Las Vegas strip if you are interested. I think it was 6/5 Bonus Poker as the base.

billryan
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Post by billryan »

I can't find where I got the 2700 machines from, so don't take that as gospel.

pokerpokerpoker
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Post by pokerpokerpoker »

No, I haven't heard a thing from Mlife, despite running a fair amount of coin-in. A quick $500 loss doesn't register too much though; hardly any points were earned. And, a bunch of play was at Aria - who is pretty tight on room comps. Cosmo, on the other hand, sent me some free week nights almost immediately.

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