Do casino's love or hate VP players?

Discuss proper hold strategies and "advantage play" and ask questions about how to improve your play.
billryan
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Re: Do casino's love or hate VP players?

Post by billryan »

Wouldn't it be easier to simply wake up each day and start a thread saying " Look at me"!
You'd get the attention you so desperately seek and we wouldn't have the same discourse.

olds442jetaway
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Post by olds442jetaway »

To answer the first question, they are pulling the vp machines near the entrance to the hall of lost tribes. I don't know what they are putting in yet. The quarter 800 for one machine is gone. The dollar one and an out of service sign on it the other day, but they may have fixed it by now. That one is in the sky casino. My guess is they are going the way of Vegas and over time reducing pay tables to the 96 range. Not that all Vegas casinos are doing that, but from what I read, that seems to be the trend.
As punishment, my last 2 trips I played 3 cent, nickel, and dime vp. Paytables are in that 96 range. Funny thing, its only 2 sessions, but I walked away 400 bucks ahead. Caught a Royal playing dimes on spin poker playing 3 lines. I don't know why, but over the years, I have always done better on poor pay table machines. I never come close by the end of the year to 99 percent return on the machines that offer it and can and often do go hundreds of thousands of hands without a Royal. That never seems to happen on the low denomination machines.
To answer the other questions, yes I can afford to lose 50k a year, but I give up lots of other things to do so. Life is about choices. Even at 50k a year, the entertainment and excitement factor comes into play where in the past I thought it was worth it. Their rooms are beautiful. It would cost me over 200 bucks a nite to stay in a similar room around here. so thats 20k right there. probably more like 30k. The food and other freebies add up to just about what I lost in total. Being debt and payment free gives you lots of choices on what to do with your money. At the same time, putting enough away to live comfortably at a low key lifestyle was important so that was and is taken care of. Certain things are going up however, way faster than most retirees realize. Health care costs, insurance, and taxes just to name a few. Pensions for many are in jeopardy and we have hidden inflation that isn't even counted. I think for me the biggest consideration to cut back in play amounts is the new tax structure and the punishment in its design. Most people will now be better off taking the standard deduction, yet when you have those w-2gs you are forced to itemize to offset them on the Federal side. States like Ct. still take a whopping 6 percent or so from your gross winnings no matter how much you lose. Playing the stock market is just another form of gambling. Why cannot one deduct gambling losses with the same rules. Gone are the days of 18 percent cds that were fdic insured. Thats when we really cleaned up since we had no debt. The current low returns on bank cds have really clobbered seniors. For many, it is just now hitting home.

FloridaPhil
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Post by FloridaPhil »

How someone spends their money is a personal decision. How much money you spend on entertainment depends upon your financial position. As Olds points out, retirees don't know what's ahead of them. Will I or a family member have a health issue? How long will my money last? Will a Trump tweet drag down my investments? Will my kids need money? When you are no longer working, your concerns change because lost money can not be easily replaced.

Each player should determine how much playing VP is worth to them. It costs us about $5,000 a year to play VP. We think that is a good value for the enjoyment we receive. If someone else pays $50,000, that's their business. It wouldn't be our choice, but that's not what this post is about.

What amazes me is when players are surprised to learn VP is not profitable. A casino is a commercial business. It's exists to make a profit. We are playing with their machines. We breath their air. They control the games and the comps. They can determine who can and can not play. The casino is not there to make errors in the player's favor or provide long term profitable opportunities. Players are allowed to win as long as they don't win too much or too long. When that happens, the rules change.

If the casino's edge becomes too great, you have the power to change how you play. The casino is not forcing you to bet any bigger than the minimum amount. Is the experience of hitting a $10,000 jackpot worth $50,000 to do so?

Where did the idea that casinos are there to be exploited come from? At one time this was true. Casinos didn't know they were paying too much. They have long since fixed this problem. Today, the casino knows exactly what's happening on on every machine on their floor in real time. They know who's playing their games and how much they win or lose. If a game is not profitable, down go the odds or the comps are reduced to compensate. If a player consistently beats their game, they are asked to play somewhere else. If you owned a casino and a player was living a great lifestyle on your games, would you allow it to continue? You might if their testimonial was good for business. If Olds hits a $100,000 royal flush would more players head over to the Mohegan Sun?

Casinos don't love or hate anyone. They only care about their own profit.

olds442jetaway
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Post by olds442jetaway »

I guess the word hate in the initial post refers to a business sense. Imo casinos would be quite happy to just have penny machines with large max bets returning just 86percent to the patrons. I have a couple of friends that play only those machines. Their coin in is about a quarter of mine and the comps and free offers dwarf mine. If i get a chip and dip dish as a giveaway they get a 50 inch tv. They also get the top shows and i never do. The casino gives them around 91percent by the end of the year where i get about 97 or 98 percent. Dollar wise they lose about the same as me by year end with much less coin in. Such is the world of casino gambling.

billryan
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Post by billryan »

olds442jetaway wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:07 pm
I guess the word hate in the initial post refers to a business sense. Imo casinos would be quite happy to just have penny machines with large max bets returning just 86percent to the patrons. I have a couple of friends that play only those machines. Their coin in is about a quarter of mine and the comps and free offers dwarf mine. If i get a chip and dip dish as a giveaway they get a 50 inch tv. They also get the top shows and i never do. The casino gives them around 91percent by the end of the year where i get about 97 or 98 percent. Dollar wise they lose about the same as me by year end with much less coin in. Such is the world of casino gambling.
Let's review
1)you see a couple that plays a quarter of the coin in, loses about the same as you but get freebies that dwarves yours.
They spend less time, get better comps at the same loss.
Why do you play video poker?

FloridaPhil
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Post by FloridaPhil »

billryan wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:18 pm
Why do you play video poker?
That's the question every player should ask themselves. Are you playing for profit or are you playing to be entertained? Your answer will determine what casino game you play and how you play it. I have two friends that only play slots. They don't win all the time and they don't lose all the time. They don't walk around depressed because they don't win long term. Last week at Murphy my friend's wife won $1,000 on a tower slot. She thinks video poker is boring. Am I going to tell her she is stupid for doing what she likes with her own money?

Video poker players are not all mathematical geniuses looking to extract the last .001% of return. Most play to be entertained. Everyone wants to win, but few can or want to do what it takes to make the game profitable. Balance the cost to play the game with the enjoyment you receive. If the cost is too much, reduce your play or find something else to do. Seems simple to me.

OTABILL
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Post by OTABILL »

billryan wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:18 pm
olds442jetaway wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:07 pm
I guess the word hate in the initial post refers to a business sense. Imo casinos would be quite happy to just have penny machines with large max bets returning just 86percent to the patrons. I have a couple of friends that play only those machines. Their coin in is about a quarter of mine and the comps and free offers dwarf mine. If i get a chip and dip dish as a giveaway they get a 50 inch tv. They also get the top shows and i never do. The casino gives them around 91percent by the end of the year where i get about 97 or 98 percent. Dollar wise they lose about the same as me by year end with much less coin in. Such is the world of casino gambling.
Let's review
1)you see a couple that plays a quarter of the coin in, loses about the same as you but get freebies that dwarves yours.
They spend less time, get better comps at the same loss.
Why do you play video poker?
This is a little off the thread and probably belongs more in the Recreational Forum. BR you view playing VP strictly from a dollars and sense perspective. That's fine. But you need to understand others don't. To us it's entertainment. Obviously there are monetary concerns and implications. When the fun, etc. is gone we wouldn't play. There are others here based on their posts who share your view while others share mine. As I have posted elsewhere, we have almost eliminated playing VP because of health issues relating to smoke in local casinos. That outweighs the entertainment value. Dollars and sense were not a factor in that decision. I hate cliches but to sum up, different strokes for different folks.

billryan
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Post by billryan »

You seem to want it both ways. You complain about spending time in smoke filled casinos while being jealous that your friends play less and get better comps. You can obviously
play any way you want, but when you choose, you can't complain about your choices. If you choose to play a game that takes four times as much coin in to get the same comps, that's your choice. You are aware that a different path will get you better comps. Your choice.

FloridaPhil
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Post by FloridaPhil »

At the Mohegan Sun where Olds plays VP you have your choice of better odds and no comp points or poor odds and full points. The machines are clearly marked. Always using a game's odds for selecting which game you play has pitfalls. It depends upon the value you place on the comps offered. One casino may offer comps that you will never use another casino has poor odds and a great points program. This may be difficult for a Vegas player to grasp as the competition between casinos helps players more than they may realize.

If I was gambling for profit, I won't play VP. I would play live poker where my time and effort would be properly compensated. I have friends that do well in the poker rooms. My son is friends with the parents of one of the poker players you see on TV. Live poker involves a lot of different skills. You can't bluff a video poker machine.

Complaining about your choices makes you feel better, but it doesn't solve anything. The doors of the casino open the same way if you play nickels or $100 a point. You are in control of how much it costs you to play VP, not the casino. Some day video poker will have a minimum bet like penny slots. Until then, it's the biggest bargain in the casino.

If you are one in a million players that has everything it takes to profit from VP, do what the experts tell you to do. If not, you are going to lose regardless. It's up to you to decide how much.

Tedlark
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Post by Tedlark »

Phil, your son is friends with Doyle Brunson's parents? How cool is that.....

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