Response to NOTES1 from the Trip Report thread

[DaBurglar]

[QUOTE=DaBurglar]
So there.......
 (1)   such a nice way to end a
revealing post. i typically do not respond to yor posts directly,
because it is pointless and i am not interested in your version of a
history lesson. i will make an exception in this case. (2)   everyone
brings their life experiences into their decision making process or how
they develop their opinions. this is normal, it can be benefical and
also a hazzard. i/m/o, you make the same 2
mistakes everytime a discussion comes up such as this. you assume that
just because someone calls for less government spending or more personal
responsibility, they are uncaring, uncharitable, greedy and even
racist. you also assume that tax dollars are being spent wisely. both
these assumptions are wrong. (3)  
i  suggest you google, 'charitable giving by political parties' , and
you will find numerous sources that support the fact that conservatives
give more per capita than liberals.  whether it be
a $43m gas station that the military built in iraq or the fact that SS
disability program is about to go bust due to abuse, there is wasteful
spending.      (4)   i have a
question for you. you have a signifcant handicap and face challenges i
cannot imagine. you have not only survived, but succeeded. why are you
so hesitant to demand the same drive and effort by others, who have
lesser obstacles. why are you willing to blame those who smoke and
are overweight (i agree), for their own created problems, but do not
hold those who drop out of school, have multiple kids out of wedlock,
absence of fathers, for causing their own demise.[/QUOTE](1) 
Nice post, notes1, more or less.....when you say you normally do not
respond because it is "pointless" and you are not interested "in a
history lesson" (my version of one), that really does you
a disservice.   You OFTEN make some cogent and good points &
arguments, and I have repeatedly said so.....and which you repeatedly
ignore.   I've said many times we probably agree more than you realize
(or WANT to realize).  And yet here you say it is "pointless".....what
is pointless?   To hear alternative view points and consider that maybe,
JUST maybe some of your own beliefs and views are not totally
correct?   Regardless of what you may think of me, I do NOT believe I am
right about everything, and regularly modify my views and
thoughts......And what do you have against history (other than
apparently you do not know it?  There is STILL a lot more history that I
myself do NOT know than what I do know...and as harry Truman said, the
"only thing new in this world is the history you do NOT know!")  
History is extremely relevant in all these issues we discuss, and quite
often people who are 100% convinced they are right about things
inconveniently find history does not agree, even remotely, with their
world view.      It is NOT pointless to debate, but you cannot
expect to just come here and make a post about YOUR views and then stick
your fingers in your ears when someone disagrees (and does a thorough
job of expressing their own views.)    I told you once already, I have
NO illusions (or desire) to "Convert" you or change a gosh darn thing in
your mind......if you think your posting is pointless because I myself
am NOT going to change because of what YOU say or post then, again, you
sell yourself short.....IF you can illustrate where I am wrong about
something or know a BETTER way, then I am all ears (or hearing
aids)....."So there"......I was
interupted mid post and had to end it somehow, so that was a (failed)
poor attempt at self deprecating/satirizing humor, so forget it if you
can;  I had made a revealing, personal post, that NO ONE asked for but I
felt important to make my point, and if it had been uttered in person,
it would have come off and sounded  totally different.   I apologize if
you really felt it was disrespectful or too flippant......(2)  
Let me categorically deny that I even remotely agree with or think what
you are implying here, about these two "ASSUMPTIONS" you try to
attribute to me.....all of it!!   You have clearly
made some incorrect leaps of logic and misinterpreted (or just plain
missed) the subtler side of my views and positions on things.   IN MY
OPINION you make this mistake everytime you respond to my posts .....
that of painting with some bizarre, simplified brush what my views
are.     I do NOT believe that EVERY Conservative Republican (including
you) is uncaring, a racist or greedy and any other negative
quality.....anymore than I believe that Every BLEEDING HEART Liberal
Democrat is a nice guy for peace love and good will etc etc.    I'm
sorry but this is an absurd and simplistic and WRONG conclusion for you
to draw!   This  reinforces my belief that  MOST PEOPLE, of any and all
political (Rep or Dem)  and social stripes (Rich, poor, middle), that
they often prefer a SIMPLE Falsehood (or lie)  over a complicated,
difficult or subtle TRUTH.   And the truth is most societal issues are
extremely complex and deep and NOT subject to easy, broad swoops to fix,
be it "free sh*t for everyone!"  OR  "Suck it up and pull yourself up
by your own bootstraps!".     And EVEN
worse, I DEFINITELY DO NOT adhere to the assumption that tax dollars are
automatically WISELY spent!!!!    I cannot even being to imagine WHERE I
said or even implied such a thing......I find it extremely troubling
that, after all I have said and posted, that you could possibly draw
such a ridiculous conclusion!   Either you really have not correctly
read what I have said, or you are being deliberately OBTUSE (or even
deceitful) to attribute this view to me!    I have even said and posted
at length the extent to which the government has WASTED money and
resources and considered this to be one area we actually AGREE!!!! 
Seriously, wtf??!?!?!? (3)  You
already made this point before about charitable giving and where
conservatives stack up, and I know all about it.....I was the recipient
of quite a bit of "Charity" in my childhood (many Shriners members are
wealthy & conservative, BUT most tend to be middle & upper
middle class Shriners who give of their time AND money .....and
politically they are diverse but are somewhat more conservative than
liberal);   I am thoroughly familiar with how their philantrophy works
and I am FORTUNATE to know PERSONALLY quite a few of these charitable
guys, so I probably am more qualified than most people to understand
about it.......but this "factoid" you repeatedly site about
Conservatives being "MORE CHaritable" than liberals PER CAPITA is NOT at
all what you are attempting to make it out to be nor does it support
what you want it to support .....in fact you really should have
elaborated more on just what it was, what "POINT" you were expecting
this piece of "data" to prove.       All I will say is this:    the
richest 10 percent in the USA is more Republican than Democrat, and the
richest 1 Percent is heavily more republican.....thus, it is not hard to
see that, those with the most money to give, republicans, will likely
stand out as being the most (per capita)
......but what does this really prove?   Not much......a lot more
detailed info and breakdown of things is needed to draw any meaninful
conclusion.   The vast majority of the giving by wwealthy could in fact
be from a handful of SUPER, UBER wealthy, like a Warren buffet and Bill
gates (both of whom are VERY strong critics of much of republican
orthodoxy) and a few of their pals, while most of the rest of the
wealthy give far less or nothing at all.And finally here is
something we all know:  It is common practice for the wealthy to both
decrease their tax burden, as well as get their name in the paper and
earn lots of "points"  through charitable donations.   And that is fine,
it still does a lot of good, but lets not ignore what is really going
on here.....(4)  Again more erroeneous
assumptions on your part......where did I EVER say I demanded "less" of
anyone who does not have the "obstacles" (your words) that I had or
have?   What are you even talking about exactly?    Who am I that I
would demand ANYTHING from anyone?     My bone disease & all that
went with it was not an "obstacle"  it was my life with me 24/7;  
"Challenges" is a better term.....There are people FAR worse off than me
who need FAR more help (I have known many such people and I am lucky in
comparison), and there are people who perhaps have what seems minor
circumstances to deal with but who still need lots of help.... that is
just how it is and I am not qualified (nor are you) to judge what they
might or night not "need"....but someone must, and that is where
GOVERNMENT must step in......   I needed HELP and I got it
(remember, your words:  "Help those who REALLY TRULY need it?")   Well I
was one who really needed it, and I got it, and I am an example of what
can be accomplished when someone does get the help and assistance they
need.     If I had not received the help I did, I would no doubt be an
invalid totally helpless and dependent on the Government issued taxpayer
freebies (i.e. people like YOU!)   My help came from not only charity
and philantrophy (Shriners), but I also received quite a bit of "free"
help from the government(s)....consider:--  I received free
transportation, a special van, that took me to and from (public) school
from Grade 1 thru 12.....everyday.   You (the taxpayer) paid for
that.....is that something you think should be done away with?   What
about people even more disabled than me, who need a PERSONAL assistant
with them while they go to school.....who pays for that?    I could have
had one if I had asked when I was in school, but I did not want one, I
wanted to wipe my own nose, feed my own mouth and all that.....-- I
needed two (2) expensive hearing aids starting in 6th grade, due to my
bone disease causing hearing loss, the bones in my ear are too soft and
do not resonate.  The state paid for them starting in 1979 (saving my
parents 1500 bucks back then, MORE as I got older and grew.)   I could
not have graduated school or excelled to the extent I did, which means,
again, I could easily be a total drain on society today at age
48.....YOu the taxpayer made that possible.   Same goes for the MANY
wheelchairs I have had throughout my life.....YOU paid for most of them!--I
received a LOT of state & federal financial aid when i was accepted
at Harvard.....I could not have attended without it (my dad worked for
the Government Defense Department at Pratt & Whitney inspecting Jet
Engines when I was growing up), and his government salary was NOT nearly
enough to afford even a more modest school;  But being disabled, and a
exceptional student, I qualified for a lot of this so called WASTEFULLY
frivolous government handout BS:  The result was I could graduate and
achieve a very good, solid well paying job when i finished, thus paying
taxes (a lot of them) when I started working.      You see
where I am going with all this.....If you just cut all aid programs and
assistance and all the "FREEBIES" that you seem to be so upset about,
simply because there are indeed people receiving these things who should
not, then what about all the people (like me) who really Do need them
and WILL do the right thing and try to make something and do the BEST
they can?    You are willing to penalize all just to make the lazy
people suffer?    I am ALL FOR eliminating waste and corruption and
channeling resources away from the scoundrels, and the indolent, but NOT
at the expense of the people who need it!    AND until or unless
someone comes up with a way to ensure that this does not happen, I will
continue to support programs and positions that give stuff to people who
do not need it FOR THE SAKE of the people who do........it is very much
like I would rather let 10 criminals walk free than incarcerate even
ONE innocent man!     That is how I sleep at night.......and also
because I KNOW whatever the level of "waste"/"fraud" that exists because
some black or hispanic women (or WHITE....go to appalachia to see what I
mean) are claiming kids they do not have, or HAVING kids they do not
want, in order to get more public assistance,  is a mere pittance
compared to what gets pissed away in the defense department and other
government agencies.   It does NOT mean I condone it or want it to
continue.......but you see my point.Like I said, I truly believe (whether you do or not)   that we are closer on issues than we are further apart!

[olds442jetaway]

Our small family farm is in the heart of Appalachia and has been for nearly a hundred years. When my brother and I used to spend a good part of our summers down there working on the farm, we would bring with us clothes, shoes, etc for the poor folks. We weren't wealthy ourselves by any means and had one older family car for many years. However, the conditions some of the hill people live in were and still are unbelievable. Within the last few years, the local hospital which was a great service to the community closed. The nearest hospital with any specialists is nearly an hour and a half away. The government has just about destroyed the coal industry that these folks relied upon. There doesn't seem to be much of a middle class down there at all. Rich or poor and that is about it for the most part. This may have nothing to do with the post, but when I heard Appalachia, I just had to write something.

[DaBurglar]

Our small family farm is in the heart of Appalachia and has been for nearly a hundred years. When my brother and I used to spend a good part of our summers down there working on the farm, we would bring with us clothes, shoes, etc for the poor folks. We weren't wealthy ourselves by any means and had one older family car for many years. However, the conditions some of the hill people live in were and still are unbelievable. Within the last few years, the local hospital which was a great service to the community closed. The nearest hospital with any specialists is nearly an hour and a half away. The government has just about destroyed the coal industry that these folks relied upon. There doesn't seem to be much of a middle class down there at all. Rich or poor and that is about it for the most part. This may have nothing to do with the post, but when I heard Appalachia, I just had to write something. Excellent post olds442......seriously, this was a great insight and definitely relevant.     My father is 75 years old, a vietnam vet, grew up in the years 1941 through 1959 during what is arguably the GREATEST time EVER in the history of the USA (and possibly all of humanity)......He is a staunch conservative not at all different than notes1 it would seem, but again, I really do not know notes1 other than from this forum so......nonetheless, whenever my dad starts to rant and rave about how the country is "goin' to hell"  due to the way "Those people (i.e. blacks and hispanics)" live in cities like Hartford, or Boston, or NYC, I simply point out how poverty stricken,deadbeat  WHITE people live in places like what you just posted about above (along with the cities too, since poverty in the cities knows no boundary when it comes to race).      My dad can only shrug in nonchalance at this apparent contradiction in the belief that certain "types" or groups of people are more prone than others to living in poverty and relying on government handouts to subsist.But such is the perception of most "right wing, back to 50s, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, leave it to beaver"  americans!       That will soon change however, especially when hispanics (and other "minorities" who will soon NOT be minorities) in large, organized fashion begin to register to vote and actually exercise the rights they do not realize they have!

[notes1]

[   I am ALL FOR eliminating waste and corruption and
channeling resources away from the scoundrels, and the indolent, but NOT
at the expense of the people who need it!    AND until or unless
someone comes up with a way to ensure that this does not happen, I will
continue to support programs and positions that give stuff to people who
do not need it FOR THE SAKE of the people who do........it is very much
like I would rather let 10 criminals walk free than incarcerate even
ONE innocent man!   


  this is the precise arguement the left has been making since LBJ. thank you, i could not have stated your case better. there is only so much money to go around, that is reality. of all people, i would think you would recognize that every dollar wasted, abused, used to buy votes, is one less dollar to be spent on those who are deserving. people get upset when they are forced to delay their retirement until age 65-70, yet see government workers getting out at age 58, with a tax payer funded pension and health care. people get pissed when they go to the store, and see those on food stamps buying items that the tax payer cannot afford. folks are disturbed when they see their able bodied neighbor collecting SS disability. they cannot understand why people are rewarded by having multiple children with multiple fathers. they want to know how assistance checks are being cashed at casinos. i have stated i am no fan of trump, but i understand his appeal. before anyone wants to talk about giving citizenship and more benefits to millions, they just want to know the border is being closed.  why is the law not being enforced. people want to know the taxes they are paying are being spent wisely, before you ask for anymore. i want to see the same effort into weeding out the abusers, useless programs are shut down, more talk about personal responsibility and less dependency on others and more credit to those who make something of themselves, instead of being labeled as greedy and uncaring. i repeat, you were dealt a tough hand at birth, your parents are to be applauded. i am surprised that someone who has justifiably received so much tax payer assistance and financial support from charities, would start a thread, why it is good to criticize america.  

[olds442jetaway]

     Notes I have to agree with you especially on the waste, fraud, and abuse part. I remember years ago looking over the secretary's shoulder as she was ordering office supplies from a catalog inflated from 4 to 10 times the going price at discount stores or other wholesalers. I offered to upper management to get some of the things on my own time just to save money. They said of course " Oh no " we have to follow all of the procurement procedures. I see the same thing being done with public schools and beautiful equipment just being tossed in the dumpster just because some experimental program that failed changed or it wasn't the latest version.
     This is just one small example of waste. It literally makes me sick when I stop over at the school during summer break and see the dumpster overflowing with perfectly good bookcases, computers, overhead projectors, recorders, folders, unsued supplies and on and on. My wife spends a good part of the summer there getting ready for the next school year. Once in awhile we resuce something and put it back into her classroom, but that is the exception.

[DaBurglar]

   this is the precise arguement the left has been making since LBJ. thank you, i could not have stated your case better. there is only so much money to go around, that is reality. of all people, i would think you would recognize that every dollar wasted, abused, used to buy votes, is one less dollar to be spent on those who are deserving. people get upset when they are forced to delay their retirement until age 65-70, yet see government workers getting out at age 58, with a tax payer funded pension and health care. people get pissed when they go to the store, and see those on food stamps buying items that the tax payer cannot afford. folks are disturbed when they see their able bodied neighbor collecting SS disability. they cannot understand why people are rewarded by having multiple children with multiple fathers. they want to know how assistance checks are being cashed at casinos. i have stated i am no fan of trump, but i understand his appeal. before anyone wants to talk about giving citizenship and more benefits to millions, they just want to know the border is being closed.  why is the law not being enforced. people want to know the taxes they are paying are being spent wisely, before you ask for anymore. i want to see the same effort into weeding out the abusers, useless programs are shut down, more talk about personal responsibility and less dependency on others and more credit to those who make something of themselves, instead of being labeled as greedy and uncaring. i repeat, you were dealt a tough hand at birth, your parents are to be applauded. i am surprised that someone who has justifiably received so much tax payer assistance and financial support from charities, would start a thread, why it is good to criticize america.  So am I correct in assuming that you actually are "OK" with the innocent (or the "deserving") suffering in order to make sure the dastardly do not "get away" with anything?I do not know what we are debating anymore.....you just echoed a lot of what I said, as I AGREE WITH ALL THAT YOU SAID ABOUT FRAUD CORRUPTION WASTE ETC......but you seem stuck on a few things, like "JUST WHO EXACTLY DO YOU (NOTES1) see as being DESERVING of the assistance you otherwise believe is excessive?"    And how exactly would YOU go about making sure only the deserving get the benefits and help they....um, "deserve"?      See, my problem (or fear, call it) is in YOUR version of reality, someone like myself never would have gotten the help that I actually did, and thus never would have realized the life I did......How exactly would you see that this did not happen,?I personally do NOT see the republicans accomplishing what it is you seek, and obviously the democrats never will, not in their current manifestations.    I have said it before, I truly believe a third party alternative is needed (even if only temporary) to FORCE both existing broken parties into making the hard painful choices needed to actually fix something!    Today's elected officials simply get away with the most outrageous things, like NOT doing their jobs while simultaneously enriching themselves and promoting their own personal careers and lives.......the system is simply BROKEN.I'll leave you with this:  If you HONESTLY know of someone (a "neighbor" you mentioned) who is collecting SSI Disability who is NOT at all actually "disabled", then REPORT THAT SOB!!!!   Likewise, if a casino you know is actually "cashing public assistance checks" then take it up with the casino!!!  (although WHAT are you actually talking about here?  What public assistance exactly?)And finally, the reason "WHY" someone like me who you think has received "so much" feels it is OK to criticize America, well you yourself highlighted a lot of reasons WHY! lol Criticizing America is the right thing to do IF your intention is to try and fix things or make it better......not just to trash or make people feel bad.