MAGA Terrorist Attack on Capitol

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seemoreroyals
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Re: MAGA Terrorist Attack on Capitol

Post by seemoreroyals »

I have a question for anyone who thinks they may know the answer. I just watched a short opinion piece by Keith Olbermann. He used to be a Dem talking head and I thought had went back to being a sports commentator but evidently he is back giving his opinions on politics. In it he said that trump just lost his ability to pardon anyone including himself that were involved in last weeks coup attempt because he was impeached. Doesn't he have to be convicted first?

I have not read or watched anyone else discussing this.

Eduardo
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Post by Eduardo »

I'm almost certain that is false, because he was already impeached previously and it never came up when he was pardoning a bunch of people.

So yes, I think he would need to be convicted in the Senate first to lose the power of the pardon. And I've read that it would not be retroactive should that happen (people previously pardoned would not lose their status).

Eduardo
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Post by Eduardo »

I just read the full quote, it sounds like he can't pardon someone involved in the crimes for which he was impeached. So specifically related to the riots and incitement.

I haven't seen the legal backing for it, but it would seem to make sense.

seemoreroyals
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Post by seemoreroyals »

Do you think he has to be convicted first or do you think the fact that he was impeached by the House is enough to disallow him to pardon the thugs as well as himself for their part in the coup attempt last week?

Eduardo
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Post by Eduardo »

I don't really know the legal intricacies behind pardons. The whole concept is odd and very Old-World (kingly) to me, and I'm surprised we have them at all in this country. But we do... so to judge this, we should look at it from a generic standpoint and how we believe all Presidents should be treated, not the specific circumstances facing Trump currently since people will have different opinions on the present circumstances.

It would seem nonsensical if a President could pardon himself (or co-conspirators) of a crime which is currently being litigated. A pardon (I believe) should only apply to those already convicted of a crime. If there is no crime and the Senate does not convict, then what have you been pardoned from?

Yet I hear that is not entirely the case... immunity can essentially be granted in some cases. One would hope this would not apply to one's self, or impeachment would have no bearing whatsoever on a President who deems himself worthy of pardon. I'm amazed there are actually different legal opinions on such a thing.

olds442jetaway
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Post by olds442jetaway »

By now, everyone knows that I am a conservative, but I do not believe in this day and age, presidents of any party should have the power to pardon someone Once one has been through the justice/court system, that should be it. The concept itself to me is archaic. I am guessing it is somewhere in the Constitution. Now that the subject has come up I am going to research it further and see if it is in there.

olds442jetaway
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Post by olds442jetaway »

Well I just researched it and sure enough it is in the constitution. In fact it says the president’s power is unlimited. It covers crimes against the United States only. It does have a clause that says except in cases of impeachment. Guess we all have that question answered down the road possibly by the Supreme Court even who knows. Now that I see that it is in the constitution I am not in favor of removing that power. However the whole concept still seems archaic to me.

billryan
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Post by billryan »

I don't believe Olbermann is correct.
I also don't think a person can pardon themself, but even if they did it shouldn't effect impeachment since it isn't a crime.
Jimmy Carter pardoned all the people who might have been charged for avoiding the draft in the Vietnam era even though most hadn't been charged, and Gerry Ford pardoned Nixon even though he had yet to be charged with any crime.
I think, legally, trump could issue a blanket pardon for anyone who participated in the events at the Capitol but it would be political and economic suicide. Remember that trump can only pardon for federal crimes and many DC police officers were attacked, which would be a local crime.
It's nebulous because the founding fathers never envisioned the people would place a villain in the position of being able to issue pardons.

notes1
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Post by notes1 »

in 1983,a man was indicted by the usa government on 65 charges. among the charges were tax evasion, wire fraud, trading with IRAN, during the oil embargo when they were still holdings US citizens hostage. conviction on all charges would have lead to a sentence of 300 years. this man fled the country, ended up in switzerland, was on the FBI's 10 most wanted list. at the time, it was the BIGGEST tax evasion case in us history.

certainly, a lovely character. but, his family did contribute over $1m to dem causes, notably the clintons.

in 2001, in his last hours as potus, Bill Clinton-dem gave marc rich a pardon.

billryan
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Post by billryan »

olds442jetaway wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:45 am
By now, everyone knows that I am a conservative, but I do not believe in this day and age, presidents of any party should have the power to pardon someone Once one has been through the justice/court system, that should be it. The concept itself to me is archaic. I am guessing it is somewhere in the Constitution. Now that the subject has come up I am going to research it further and see if it is in there.
Article Two grants the President the power to pardon all offenses except for impeachments.

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