Full pay FP VP games

Why do you play video poker? What is your favorite game and why?
onemoretry
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Re: Full pay FP VP games

Post by onemoretry »

tech58 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:49 am
Vman, thanks for the 450 number.
Well, at least we had it surrounded.

tech58
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Post by tech58 »

onemoretry wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:33 am
tech58 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:49 am
Vman, thanks for the 450 number.
Well, at least we had it surrounded.
Been 2-3 years since i have been to Aquarius,wonder if those machines are still there?

CasinoResearch
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Post by CasinoResearch »

Is anyone aware of any other paybacks over 100% besides the one already mentioned?

BobDancer
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Post by BobDancer »

CasinoResearch wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:36 am
Is anyone aware of any other paybacks over 100% besides the one already mentioned?
It isn't the raw return of the game that counts.

It's that return + slot club benefits + mailers + promotions + (sometimes) comps. If the TOTAL of these exceeds 100% by a big enough margin, the player can have an advantage.

What games are we talking about? Well, there are hundreds of different possibilities --- depending on the slot club, mailers, promotions, and (sometimes) comps. It all varies on a casino by casino basis.

TripleTriple
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Post by TripleTriple »

[/quote]
It's that return + slot club benefits + mailers + promotions + (sometimes) comps. If the TOTAL of these exceeds 100% by a big enough margin, the player can have an advantage.
[/quote]

I would go as far as to say the player WILL have an advantage. Why wouldn't they? Will that advantage be able to be taken advantage of? Possibly, given proper bankroll. The real question is to define a "big enough margin". That shouldn't be hard once you determine your projected coin through for a session/day/trip. The game and casino (and a host of other variables) don't matter once the margin has been calculated and deemed acceptable.

So what sayeth you, what is that mysterious number?

BobDancer
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Post by BobDancer »

TripleTriple wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:19 pm
So what sayeth you, what is that mysterious number?

[/quote]

There are so many variables. Supporting yourself is a different matter than supporting an entire family. Supplementing $5,000 a month in pension and Social Security is an entirely different ballgame than not having those cushions. Having a job that will regularly add to and replenish your gambling bankroll is not the same as not having that income.

The return on a game is discounted by your error rate --- so if you can play a 99.5% game at the 99% accuracy level, that takes it to (about) 98.5%. How well do you play? How recently have you tested yourself?

There are some monetary returns that are hard to place a number on. How much is a drawing worth, for example? If you have enough tickets, surely it's worth something, but how much? And there will always be swings. $1,000 a month on average might be enough for somebody, but winning $20,000 once a year and losing $600 a month for the other 11 months might not be --- even though they average out to about the same amount.

Do you count food comps? And at what rate? A $100 comp at a steak house is hardly worth $100 if you would have eaten for $20 somewhere else without the comp.

Same with room comps. How do you evaluate how much they are worth? If the rate on the back of the door says $250 a night, would you really pay that amount if you didn't get it for free?

I count transportation costs as a NEGATIVE --- so if I have to spend $xxx getting somewhere to gamble, assuming I don't get reimbursed, that could change a 99% game into a 97% game. There are people who ignore these costs because they wouldn't be a winner if they included them and they like to think of themselves as a winner.

At some casinos you have a dependable mailer of the same amount every month. Let's say it's $100 a month. If you gamble $50,000 a month there to generate that mailer, it's easy to calculate that as a 0.2% benefit. But many casinos give you a different amount every month --- based on who-knows-what formula. It's harder to come up with a figure on how much that's worth.

How much is a free cruise worth --- especially if "free" usually means $500 in port fees and gratuities plus transportation to and from the port city? Not in the COVID-19 era, of course, buy the quality of my married life has been improved by these cruises and I definitely consider them a plus and will play extra to earn one. Many people have a very different calculus on how much they are worth.

Casinos give away "casino crap" that is often worthless. But not always. I've received televisions, wine, vacations, automobiles, jackets, etc., that I use. How much are those worth?

Sometimes you get gift cards. Do you count them as face value? Well, if it's from Walmart or Amazon, for me the answer is yes. If it's from "Omaha Steaks," not so much. if I can sell those at 80%-90% of face value, I will every time.

Even if I had one number (which I don't), there are a huge number of ways to come up with that number. Were I playing in Minnesota, for example, my choices of games that met my expectations would be different than if I live in Vegas, which I do. The games are still there, of course, if you know where to look.

Finally, you're going to have to find these opportunities for yourself. If I post about a $50/hour game online, the game will be pulled in less than a week. There will always be those who say that since they don't know about any positive games then those games don't exist. In almost every jurisdiction, however, good games may be found by the knowledgeable player.

TripleTriple
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Post by TripleTriple »

Thank you for the very detailed reply. I had not expected that. And while I understand your points, to me it would still come down to what I could realistically expect to come home with on average, in the long run blah blah blah, for my time and effort. That is, I can certainly calculate what the (expected) hourly earning rate would be as alluded to in the previous post. I have read in the past if it's not 10 or 15/hr it's hardly worth the effort, let alone the time (realize that was quite a few years ago). From my rough calculations and what I consider realistic for the comps and hence the overall advantage, that equates to playing at today's dollar level.

So I would expect a minimum $2, and more appropriately $5 credit wagers to make good use of whatever minimum advantage you have set. But wait! that's only if you are the career minded VP player- by definition there has to be that "minimum wage" you are willing to accept. I am not, never claimed to be, and never even gave thought to being an advantage player. I always figured those days had pretty much passed.

That doesn't mean I don't want to have a positive game. I am a strictly recreational player playing for entertainment, still honing my skills and identifying opportunities. Most importantly I realize I have nowhere near the bankroll to play above a dollar. I have to believe that's where most aspiring "advantage player"s fail. They study the game. They play perfect. They find the absolute best paytables. They do all the things to maximize their comps, calculate that margin. Then they experience a prolonged bad luck streak, are under-royaled or under-whatevered, and are forced to lower their denomination or coin through. When the luck turns back they recoup less, become gun-shy, make larger, more frequent discretionary errors in hopes of premium payoffs and suffer the corresponding losses in both return and comps. Or maybe they take a break completely and have to find civilian work.

Maybe I simplified it based on my preferences. I won't pursue drawings and certain promotions or travel to get the absolute best comps or spend hours determining the finer merits of Casino A vs. B. I like to play as I say for entertainment, but mostly to witness first-hand the randomness, streaks and anomalies that make other people crazy and lead them to post about it on sites like these.

I am glad of course that you don't post of the best machines and their locations. I want to see those 7/5 JOB machines full. I owe a huge debt of gratitude to those people sticking their diamond ultra rockgod cards in and sitting there hours on end enjoying themselves with free drinks!

I will tell you "my" number. If I can't achieve it I will still play but as close as possible. It is "0". To me that's fair and reasonable. Best of luck!

Vman96
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Post by Vman96 »

Nice stuff Bob, thanks.

FloridaPhil
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Post by FloridaPhil »

Vman96 wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:51 pm
Nice stuff Bob, thanks.
Great information. Very detailed and honest. TripleTriple's response was also good. We could use more like this.

ANH2751
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Post by ANH2751 »

cool

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