How many different video poker games do you play?

The lighter side... playing for entertainment, less concerned about "the math."
FloridaPhil
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Re: How many different video poker games do you play?

Post by FloridaPhil »

I believe I quoted Mr. Dancer's comment accurately. I don't have time to look up a comment he may have made years ago. We have all stated opinions that we later changed. The only way to find out is to ask. What's so hard about that?

That's not the real issue. You want to believe math predetermines all video poker results. You want to believe it because that is what keeps you going back. In a thousand years you may be behind lifetime and you may still be waiting for your royals to materialize. If I asked you how it's going, you will say "Great, I'm playing with an edge." I am ahead lifetime playing the games on this website. I could just as easily be behind.

Vman96
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Post by Vman96 »

Jstark wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:48 am
FloridaPhil wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:33 am
I personally believe games like Ultimate X and Super Times Play have been a major contributor to the increase in player losses that has been reported over the last ten years. Multiplier games increase coin-in. The variance is significantly higher than the same traditional single line game. Many times the odds are worse as well. Some players love these games and they pay a price to play them.

I believe if you stick with traditional single line video poker games, your money will last longer and you will do better in the long run. There are exceptions like finding a left over multiplier, but most multiplier games I see are big time losers.

It is possible to have a bad day on any game at any time. Jacks or Better is easiest on your wallet. I hardly ever play it because I find it boring. Double double bonus is a reverse ATM. Most experts consider it unbeatable. If you can play 10/6, the cost will be less. Bonus Poker is a compromise. It plays like Jacks or Better with better incentives. Bonus Poker often has better odds in smaller denominations.

I have been playing Deuces Wild for over ten years. From my experience as a recreational player, it offers the most bang for your buck, especially in today's negative game world. Others may have different opinions.

Recreational players like me know they are going to pay to play, so we choose our games based on entertainment value. No matter what game I choose to play, it's not entertaining if I go home with my wallet consistently empty.
Ultimate X for sure. Just the fact that 99.99% of the regular players aren't even coming close to playing optimal strategy on that game is going to be a huge factor. There aren't any strategy changes for STP or DSTP, just higher variance. But also slightly higher return than the same pay table without the feature.
Yeah, but playing standard on UX costs less than most people think. Roughly 0.6% less in return. Until I did the math, I assumed more like 3%.

FloridaPhil
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Post by FloridaPhil »

Playing video poker with an edge on the house does not "guarantee" a short term or long term profit. No one ever said there is any sort of "guarantee". What playing with an edge does is tilt the odds in your favor. So much so, that professional players are willing to risk their money gambling that the outcome will be positive. Millions of dollars have been won using this strategy. Millions of dollars have been lost as well.

My issue with DDB as a profit producer has more to do with the players than the game. Huge swings cause players to take matters into their own hands, wiping out whatever advantage they had. If you can play DDB perfectly without error and stay the course no matter what, you are a rare individual.

Jstark
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Post by Jstark »

Vman96 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:34 pm
Jstark wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:48 am
FloridaPhil wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:33 am
I personally believe games like Ultimate X and Super Times Play have been a major contributor to the increase in player losses that has been reported over the last ten years. Multiplier games increase coin-in. The variance is significantly higher than the same traditional single line game. Many times the odds are worse as well. Some players love these games and they pay a price to play them.

I believe if you stick with traditional single line video poker games, your money will last longer and you will do better in the long run. There are exceptions like finding a left over multiplier, but most multiplier games I see are big time losers.

It is possible to have a bad day on any game at any time. Jacks or Better is easiest on your wallet. I hardly ever play it because I find it boring. Double double bonus is a reverse ATM. Most experts consider it unbeatable. If you can play 10/6, the cost will be less. Bonus Poker is a compromise. It plays like Jacks or Better with better incentives. Bonus Poker often has better odds in smaller denominations.

I have been playing Deuces Wild for over ten years. From my experience as a recreational player, it offers the most bang for your buck, especially in today's negative game world. Others may have different opinions.

Recreational players like me know they are going to pay to play, so we choose our games based on entertainment value. No matter what game I choose to play, it's not entertaining if I go home with my wallet consistently empty.
Ultimate X for sure. Just the fact that 99.99% of the regular players aren't even coming close to playing optimal strategy on that game is going to be a huge factor. There aren't any strategy changes for STP or DSTP, just higher variance. But also slightly higher return than the same pay table without the feature.
Yeah, but playing standard on UX costs less than most people think. Roughly 0.6% less in return. Until I did the math, I assumed more like 3%.
Watch people play for an extended period of time. They're nowhere close to 0.6%

Tedlark
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Post by Tedlark »

New2vp wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:55 am
No reason to deflect to Bob. OMT was asking you about your rationale for what YOU posted. Anyone with a modicum of mathematical knowledge would understand that without comps a game with an EV of 100.0670% may just have too small a player edge to be worth anyone's time, even though there would be an expectation of a profit. Please don't misread "expectation" as "guarantee." I don't need to ask or wonder what Bob might have said at any time in the past to infer what the most logical context was.

I understand that once in a while you are not wrong when discussing numbers and sometimes even right about some players' psychology, but that is far from suggesting that you are a credible source for accurate information relating to playing advice, game selection, or choice of denomination.

OMT was calling you out on what you said, not what Dancer said. If you don't want to be questioned, you may want to stick to stories, continue your own education, avoid trying to give advice, and remember not to continuously give us your interpretation of what Dancer or other experts say or think. We can all read others' advice for ourselves. I don't care whether you admit whether you are wrong or not. I can tell that for myself as well.
“It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own.”

Vman96
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Posts: 3288
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:49 am

Post by Vman96 »

Jstark wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:33 pm
Vman96 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:34 pm
Jstark wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:48 am
FloridaPhil wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:33 am
I personally believe games like Ultimate X and Super Times Play have been a major contributor to the increase in player losses that has been reported over the last ten years. Multiplier games increase coin-in. The variance is significantly higher than the same traditional single line game. Many times the odds are worse as well. Some players love these games and they pay a price to play them.

I believe if you stick with traditional single line video poker games, your money will last longer and you will do better in the long run. There are exceptions like finding a left over multiplier, but most multiplier games I see are big time losers.

It is possible to have a bad day on any game at any time. Jacks or Better is easiest on your wallet. I hardly ever play it because I find it boring. Double double bonus is a reverse ATM. Most experts consider it unbeatable. If you can play 10/6, the cost will be less. Bonus Poker is a compromise. It plays like Jacks or Better with better incentives. Bonus Poker often has better odds in smaller denominations.

I have been playing Deuces Wild for over ten years. From my experience as a recreational player, it offers the most bang for your buck, especially in today's negative game world. Others may have different opinions.

Recreational players like me know they are going to pay to play, so we choose our games based on entertainment value. No matter what game I choose to play, it's not entertaining if I go home with my wallet consistently empty.
Ultimate X for sure. Just the fact that 99.99% of the regular players aren't even coming close to playing optimal strategy on that game is going to be a huge factor. There aren't any strategy changes for STP or DSTP, just higher variance. But also slightly higher return than the same pay table without the feature.
Yeah, but playing standard on UX costs less than most people think. Roughly 0.6% less in return. Until I did the math, I assumed more like 3%.
Watch people play for an extended period of time. They're nowhere close to 0.6%
Oh sure, I just meant 0.6% worse if you played optimal basic strategy for standard VP. The average player is definitely tossing 2 to 3% from true optimal. But it's still less than I would have first guessed.

New2vp
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Post by New2vp »

Ok, let's review.

FloridaPhil (in 2020): Double double bonus is a reverse ATM. Most experts consider it unbeatable. If you can play 10/6, the cost will be less

I emphasized the plural of the word. Using the plural would indicate that were at least two experts, but most likely more, that had that belief in 2020. Present tense. It was stated as a fact by FloridaPhil rather than an opinion. And certainly you didn't attribute that knowledge as coming from Dancer's knowledge of others; it was stated as your knowledge of what experts (plural) consider.

onemoretry: My understanding is that 10/6 double double bonus is a very slightly positive game. Which "experts" are claiming that it's unbeatable?

FloridaPhil: I believe Bob Dancer stated that more than once in the past. He may have changed his opinion.

So you are not sure what Bob believes now, but you still felt confident enough to make that statement in 2020. Presumably, by experts, you meant Bob and at least one other non-named authority. Or maybe you just "made up" that statement in 2020.

FloridaPhil: It's been a long time. I believe what he said was many pros don't play DDB because they do not consider it beatable. Maybe he does now?

Ok, now we are getting even less certain. Does this support your statement in 2020? Not in my opinion, but others may use their own judgment.

FloridaPhil: I believe I quoted Mr. Dancer's comment accurately. I don't have time to look up a comment he may have made years ago.

Now he may have made it years ago and he may think differently? I'm wondering why he sells a Winners Guide for Double Double Bonus, now. And he has been selling it for quite a few years now. That is the support for what you wrote about most experts that onemoretry questioned? You may want to update your knowledge. Bob Dancer does write about playing DDB occasionally. And I'll go out on a limb and guess that he doesn't play any games for any length of time that he considers unbeatable.

FloridaPhil: That's not the real issue. You want to believe math predetermines all video poker results.

Wow, I wonder if anyone else can read what I wrote and come up with that conclusion. I would ask you to support that statement as well, but I suppose, following your pattern in this thread, you might once again put the blame on something Bob Dancer may (or may not) have written years ago. I'm not planning on watching you chase your tail trying to justify how calling you out on an incorrect post about Double Double Bonus means that math predetermines video poker results.

I do understand why you would want to change the topic, though. Great head fake! Nice try!

And it is interesting that you now know what I want and what I believe. I imagine you might be better at video poker and perhaps even better at posting if you actually could divine those things.

FloridaPhil: I don't have time to look up a comment he may have made years ago.

And you don't really have time or the ability to justify a statement that you made just a couple days ago. Ok, this has been fun, but if you can't even stay on topic, I've grown tired of watching you talk in circles.

New2vp
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Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:02 am

Post by New2vp »

Tedlark wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:32 pm
“It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own.”
What is wisdom attributed to Cicero, Alex? ;) But, hark, perhaps we are too hasty in making that reference. It may have been a few years ago and Cicero may have since changed his mind. Why don't you ask him if he still believes this and get back to us?

OTABILL
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Post by OTABILL »

Phil, please don't quote BD. By doing so, all you are doing is giving those folks who want to kick you off this site an opening. They just salivate at that possibility. Just state your opinion and leave it at that. I would not respond to the above and just let this end.

From my perspective, whether a game such as 10/6 DDB is beatable or not depends upon how skilled is the individual playing it. If you want to get more technical, move the discussion to the Strategy Forum. This is the Recreational Forum where the emphasis is on "The lighter side... playing for entertainment, less concerned about "the math."" I am really fed up with VP strategy, optimal play, EV creeping into discussions here. Those more technical subjects should be relegated to the Strategy Forum. Thought that was understood and agreed upon.

New2vp
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Post by New2vp »

Otabill, no salivation here. You may think what I wrote was wrong, but if you reread it, I advised "remember not to continuously give us your interpretation of what Dancer or other experts say or think." You suggested, "please don't quote BD." Those seem like fairly similar recommendations.

I kept to the subject of what Phil and onemoretry wrote without additional references to "VP strategy and optimal play." No issue with you taking Phil's side here. Maybe you thought that what I wrote had something to do with math predetermining results, but if you reread it, I think you will see that meandering belonged to Phil's imagination. I simply thought that onemoretry's question was more reasonable that Phil's response.

I'm certainly open to your critical response and disagreement.

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