Game variant with greatest player error?

The lighter side... playing for entertainment, less concerned about "the math."
onemoretry
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Re: Game variant with greatest player error?

Post by onemoretry »

Carcounter wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:01 am
Yes 7 to 1 for straights, flushes and full houses instead of 8 to 1. Big change to payback. Caesars AC had the full pay version for dollars back in the day.
Yes, at 96.27% return, it's not very attractive. I have seen a version that keeps the 8 for 1 for the straights, flushes, and full houses, but reduces the quad payout to 150 from 200. It's a 98.49% game. I have often thought that if I saw a version that paid 175 for quads, and kept the rest of the payable intact, making the return 99.60% I would give it a shot. I'm not holding my breath!

FloridaPhil
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Post by FloridaPhil »

onemoretry wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:31 am
Based on your Mar18 post in another thread, I really thought you were going to abandon your soapbox. But, if you even did, it didn't take long to climb back on.
This is a forum. A forum is a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged. Some of the ideas and views I posted above were taught to me by experts. Some of them were learned from my own experiences. If I didn't think they would be helpful, I wouldn't post them.

It would be better if others would join in. Unfortunately, our self appointed forum critics will pounce on their every word. That is why most people are afraid to post here and why there is so much repetition.

OTABILL
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Post by OTABILL »

FloridaPhil wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:49 am

If, on the other hand, you are playing for entertainment, your decision is more about the entertainment value received for your money. You may be surprised to know that 99% of players do not profit from the game and they keep playing despite this fact. This is because they enjoy playing the game and feel they receive good value for their money.

The question becomes, not what game is easier to play perfectly? It becomes what game do you like to play better? If you like a game, you will learn to play it better and you are more likely to stick with it. High variance games are more difficult to play because they can tax your discipline to the limit.
I have to agree with FP on this one regarding entertainment value. My late wife and I played almost exclusively DDB (a little TDB) at casinos. In fact, she was only interested most of the time playing progressives. It is what we enjoyed and what we practiced on our ancient Win Poker Software (postmarked August 4th, 2002). If the right games were unavailable for whatever reason, we didn't play. As I've said before, we had a different perspective than most of the regulars here.

Vman96
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Post by Vman96 »

Carcounter wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:01 am
onemoretry wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:18 am
Carcounter wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:21 am
Once had availability of 100.72% All Americans in AC
Ooh, I just loved that game, and I practised and practised it on my old winpoker programme until I could play it virtually error free. And, yes, there are some unusual holds to get used to. While I did play it a bit at one of the Trump casinos in Atlantic City, most of my play on it was at the Las Vegas Hilton. To me, it was a great game, made even better at the Hilton due to a casino error that was rewarding video poker players in that part of the casino as if they were playing slots.

I believe the All American name was exclusively Bally's. There is a similar game available today called USA poker with the same unique pay table structure. Unfortunately, the pays are not the same.
Yes 7 to 1 for straights, flushes and full houses instead of 8 to 1. Big change to payback. Caesars AC had the full pay version for dollars back in the day.
Not always. Ive seen 35/8/8/8 USA poker in Tunica (99.6%) in Tunica early this decade.

And I forgot about "All American"/"USA", that one is definitely tough. I played the 100.72% version in Boonvile, Missouri for a bit in 2004. Last positive non-progressive game Missouri offered.

olds442jetaway
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Post by olds442jetaway »

2004!! Wow! You must have been a baby then. Just curious. Did you have all of your math and strategy skills honed back then. I on the other hand had been retired a year already and was playing with some strategy, but not 99 percent. Funny thing is luck was with me more way back on low denomination games in the 96 percent range. More fun than a barrel of monkeys were the nickel 9/6 job games in downtown Aruba. Did have that strategy down. I remember waiting in line with the wife with buckets and buckets of nickels waiting to cash out. Everything was at a slower pace down there. For some reason things were different. I rememver playing for 5 minutes in the hotel casino while waiting for the bellman. Hit a nickel Royal. On the way to dinner stopped in again for 5 minutes and hit another one.

Jstark
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Post by Jstark »

We had the 8/8/8 version here but I don't know what the rest was. I wasn't much of a VP player then so I didn't pay much attention. But the 8/8/8 definitely stuck out.

FloridaPhil
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Post by FloridaPhil »

I play 9/7 (99.578%) TDB on this website almost every day. It's as close to a positive video poker game as I have ever played for any length of time. I would never play this game in a casino because of the long nasty dry spells. However, there is no cost to play here other than the $9 a month. If I run out of coins, they give me more.

I am sure I do not play this game anywhere near computer perfect. I can lose thousands of coins in a week. I start out fresh each day. If I don't hit at least one quad in 500 coins, I quit for the day. Otherwise I keep playing. If I get over 4,000 coins, I quit unless someone overtakes me. If they do I try to catch up. With so many players, it is very difficult to be high player of the day. I have made it a number of times.

Like everyone, I started out with 10,000 coins a few years ago. I currently have over 45,000 coins. Webman can verify this. There are no comps to make me a winner. If I quit playing today, I will be a lifetime winner on this website forever.

What it shows me is playing near positive games is the way to go. It also shows the power of having an unlimited bankroll and that luck is a bigger advantage than having math on your side.

TripleTriple
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Post by TripleTriple »

Well at least a couple replies gave me an answer with information pertinent to my question. I will try to explain what I was thinking and why the error rate may (or may not) matter more than one might think...
tech58 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:16 am
Question? Asked only because i don't know,not as a criticism of any ones choice of games.
If the error rate in these more difficult games is higher, how much of the slightly higher ER is lost to errors?
Where i play, the best available is DDB at 99.96% which is .23% better than DW at 99.73%.
Assuming, for the purposes of this question,someone plays DW at .05% error rate instead of the 1% mentioned above, which game has the better return?
This reply is a good example. I had mentioned my approximate error rate of 1% of HANDS, well I did a little study using gold trainer and played 1000 hands of 9/7 TDB. I had 12 hands which were incorrect, all yellow lights. Most of my mistakes were going for gut shot straights with 2 or more high cards vs. 2 suited high cards or holding pairs or unsuited high cards vs 3 to a SF, etc. When I plugged my wrong hands into an analyzer, the total error in EV was 0.2656. My most egregious mistake was the following: Kh Qh 10c 9c 8c. (I kept the high cards at 0.5474 vs 0.6207 for the 3 card SF draw. Difference of 0.0733).

So what? Well, if I'm playing dollars on 9/7 with a 99.58% return, 1000 hands of perfect play will cost me around 21 bucks. My mistakes only cost me another theoretical 27 cents, not $50 as if I would play so poorly that I actually gave up 1% in actual payback. Looking at it another way, 27 cents on $5000 coin in reduces my return by 0.0054% lowering it to 99.5724%. Kindly correct my math if off.

Of course my mistakes were relatively minor. If you keep that pair of 7s with a pair of Aces it'll cost you about 0.50 per instance. Make the mistake of drawing to an inside straight instead of an outside straight (Ah Qs Jd 10c 9c) is a difference of 0.27. And if you like to discard the kicker with three Aces- a whopping 3.76 per instance. On the flip side going for a low inside straight vs. discarding all is only a difference of 0.03 or so- is it even worth the time it takes to hold 4 cards? All these examples are for 9/7 TDB and over the long run of course, but it's the principle.

The whole point is that it's not so much how many mistakes you make, but which ones. You could play near perfect and know penalty cards and all that but if you're tired and miss a few hands, it could be more costly than someone who makes more mistakes but knows that they are generally close in value.

Which leads me back to my question. A more difficult game to learn and understand strategy, someone who switches variants often, or plays the same games with different paytables is likely to make more mistakes and cost themselves even more.
FloridaPhil wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:49 am
The question becomes, not what game is easier to play perfectly? It becomes what game do you like to play better? If you like a game, you will learn to play it better and you are more likely to stick with it. High variance games are more difficult to play because they can tax your discipline to the limit.
[/quote]

Actually, in a way I am asking what game(s) is easier to play perfectly, only by posing the question the other way. I'm not sure I'm going to like a game better if I'm constantly wondering if i'm making the right play because it has so many holds, exceptions and a strategy card the size of a restaurant menu. I don't have an issue with high variance games. TDB is high variance, I don't find it that difficult- in fact I find it easier than DDB. Discipline is one of my strengths, and it shouldn't make them any harder to play. Unless of course you start altering your strategy to try to get those high payouts. Play proper strategy and the hands will come. Patience.

And sorry, I don't know how to do quotes :)

FloridaPhil
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Post by FloridaPhil »

TripleTriple wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:43 pm
Play proper strategy and the hands will come.
I'm not so sure about your last statement. Admittedly, my opinions are somewhat controversial on this forum. I don't limit my play to only positive opportunities. I play video poker strictly for entertainment purposes. This changes my strategy on occasion. I may intentionally make a small "error" to give me a greater chance at a bigger payout.

For example, my wife and I both play deuces wild almost exclusively. The computer says we should never hold a non deuce two card royal draw like an Ace/Jack or an Ace/Ten. The cost of doing this when playing max coin quarters ($1.25) is 1-4 cents each time. Because of the wild cards, we both get a lot more wild royals that pay as much as a Jacks or Better quad. My wife has hit three $1,000 royals this way and I have hit two so far.

My wife has been playing this way for ten years. I played beside her and played the computer strategy. I grew tired of watching her hit more royals and wild royals, so I changed to her strategy and it worked for me as well. I know I am going to pay to play no matter what I do. I don't have a problem sacrificing 4 cents for a shot at $1,000.

If you are a professional player betting big stakes, computer perfect play is critical. One error will cost you a lot more than a piece of gum. I'm not saying the computer is wrong or that you shouldn't trust math. I'm saying it depends on what you want to happen compared to the cost of making it happen more often.

There are many people who disagree with my playing style. I do not profit from playing video poker. If profit is your motivation, play only positive games and play them as close to computer perfect as possible.

Carcounter
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Post by Carcounter »

Vman96 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:22 am
Carcounter wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:01 am
onemoretry wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:18 am
Carcounter wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:21 am
Once had availability of 100.72% All Americans in AC
Ooh, I just loved that game, and I practised and practised it on my old winpoker programme until I could play it virtually error free. And, yes, there are some unusual holds to get used to. While I did play it a bit at one of the Trump casinos in Atlantic City, most of my play on it was at the Las Vegas Hilton. To me, it was a great game, made even better at the Hilton due to a casino error that was rewarding video poker players in that part of the casino as if they were playing slots.

I believe the All American name was exclusively Bally's. There is a similar game available today called USA poker with the same unique pay table structure. Unfortunately, the pays are not the same.
Yes 7 to 1 for straights, flushes and full houses instead of 8 to 1. Big change to payback. Caesars AC had the full pay version for dollars back in the day.
Not always. Ive seen 35/8/8/8 USA poker in Tunica (99.6%) in Tunica early this decade.

And I forgot about "All American"/"USA", that one is definitely tough. I played the 100.72% version in Boonvile, Missouri for a bit in 2004. Last positive non-progressive game Missouri offered.
If I had the 35/8/8/8 version available, I would probably play it.

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