the situation is worse than ever

Discussion about gambling in Atlantic City
DaBurglar
Video Poker Master
Posts: 4535
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:11 pm

Re: the situation is worse than ever

Post by DaBurglar »


People pick and choose what they want to repeat and what they want to agree and disagree with while distorting the real picture.......I am sharing my own personal experiences and observations regarding VP, and as of late that encompasses AC.   Prior to 2009, I had never EVER been to AC, my VP experience was centered in Nevada (Vegas & Reno.)  From 1992 until 2009 I had very good and typical results playing in Nevada, I learned optimum strategy for several of my favorite games and always stuck to it, and only played within my stomach's ability to lose (namely 25 cent denom, always.)    Up to 2009 I was convinced VP was a fair and good game to play, even though I did see a little downtick in my winnings in Vegas from september 2007 until March of 2009, but nothing so severe to suggest anything conclusive. In February of 2009 I decided to try AC for a change, since flying had become a huge hassle for me.....I approached VP in AC just like I did in Nevada, as I had no reason to suspect it would be radically different, although I knew going in that paytables in AC were pretty bad compared to Nevada but still I figured I should be okay as long as I sought the few good games and didnt play any truly horrible ones.   Much to my surprise when I got to AC at first, upon seeing things like Resorts and all their 8/5 BP games, I thought this would not be so bad afterall. The first two years in AC, as I experienced the performance of many of their machines, was really bad in terms of return percent, and this is when I first suspected something.....but as many of you recall, when I first came here and voiced my results, I was told "Its only variance, and randomness, just keep playing and eventually it will correct itself...."     Funny how no one brings that up anymore..... Anyhoo, I stuck with it and it only got worse, sometimes a little at a time, sometimes a lot.....after the third year I was certain something was wrong, perhaps either the games were rigged or jus functioned differently......I asked questions of anyone I could find in AC, I went to the gaming commission, and I kept posting here.....my HOPE in posting here was that someone, somewhere with a good heart and intentions would see my plight and offer REAL insight or guidance beyond what I myself uncovere, or barring that, I hoped other players who experienced the same thing I did in AC would speak up..... Finally, about a year ago, I received a breakthrough of sorts when reading the New Jersey Regs and talking both with people in the Gaming Commission Office in Atlantic city on Tennessee Avenue, and talking with a few helpful casino management executive types.....Atlantic City Video Poker IS NOT rigged illegally or anything like that, but it does have SIGNIFICANTLY different regulations regarding Video Poker and what casinos can and cannot do, especially when compared to Vegas. As stated before, AC video Poker is simply another form of SLOTS, which allows casinos to set the machines as low as they would any other slot.....it does not mean that they DO or have done this with everysingle VP machine on the floor (in fact I know they have not done this, but they have done it with SOME machines, more so in some casinos than others according to what I have been told and what I have been experiencing.)     I learned that for a long time, up until around 2008, the standard practice on most AC casinos was to leave the video poker machines alone and simply allow the paytables to dictate return.....that changed as the times became increasingly DESPERATE, and this really doesnt surprise me lokking back in hindsight.)  Nonetheless, it took me a long time to accept all this....but now that I have, I have altered my play and practice accordingly.    So I HAVE LEARNED A LOT, much more than anyone else here it seems.    Having explained all this now in simple straightforward terms, I would appreciate it if anyone out there who has an issue with my continued visits to AC or who just cannot "GRASP or get their mind around it", bookmark this thread and refer to this explanation so that I never have to endure anymore obnoxious responses to my sharing of my video poker experience in AC.  Thanks to ko king for at least TRYING to understand and not pre-judge or pointlessly crticize my posts and what I am saying......and for anyone else who (wrongly) insists I am always "knocking" ac, you are simply tuning in and tuning out the parts you want......I report on MANY positive things about AC and I always maintain how much I like the place and wish it could fix itself.   And If chris christie or whomever wants to listen to me and hire me, I would love the chance to make a difference.  So until something changes or someone comes along and convinces me of something else, I am going to share and report EXACTLY what I see and experience in AC.....and when I get to Vegas, you can be sure I will report on that too!

ko king
VP Veteran
Posts: 670
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:13 pm

Post by ko king »

People pick and choose what they want to repeat and what they want to agree and disagree with while distorting the real picture.......I am sharing my own personal experiences and observations regarding VP, and as of late that encompasses AC.   Prior to 2009, I had never EVER been to AC, my VP experience was centered in Nevada (Vegas & Reno.)  From 1992 until 2009 I had very good and typical results playing in Nevada, I learned optimum strategy for several of my favorite games and always stuck to it, and only played within my stomach's ability to lose (namely 25 cent denom, always.)    Up to 2009 I was convinced VP was a fair and good game to play, even though I did see a little downtick in my winnings in Vegas from september 2007 until March of 2009, but nothing so severe to suggest anything conclusive.
 
In February of 2009 I decided to try AC for a change, since flying had become a huge hassle for me.....I approached VP in AC just like I did in Nevada, as I had no reason to suspect it would be radically different, although I knew going in that paytables in AC were pretty bad compared to Nevada but still I figured I should be okay as long as I sought the few good games and didnt play any truly horrible ones.   Much to my surprise when I got to AC at first, upon seeing things like Resorts and all their 8/5 BP games, I thought this would not be so bad afterall.
 
The first two years in AC, as I experienced the performance of many of their machines, was really bad in terms of return percent, and this is when I first suspected something.....but as many of you recall, when I first came here and voiced my results, I was told "Its only variance, and randomness, just keep playing and eventually it will correct itself...."     Funny how no one brings that up anymore.....
 
Anyhoo, I stuck with it and it only got worse, sometimes a little at a time, sometimes a lot.....after the third year I was certain something was wrong, perhaps either the games were rigged or jus functioned differently......I asked questions of anyone I could find in AC, I went to the gaming commission, and I kept posting here.....my HOPE in posting here was that someone, somewhere with a good heart and intentions would see my plight and offer REAL insight or guidance beyond what I myself uncovere, or barring that, I hoped other players who experienced the same thing I did in AC would speak up.....
 
Finally, about a year ago, I received a breakthrough of sorts when reading the New Jersey Regs and talking both with people in the Gaming Commission Office in Atlantic city on Tennessee Avenue, and talking with a few helpful casino management executive types.....Atlantic City Video Poker IS NOT rigged illegally or anything like that, but it does have SIGNIFICANTLY different regulations regarding Video Poker and what casinos can and cannot do, especially when compared to Vegas.
 
As stated before, AC video Poker is simply another form of SLOTS, which allows casinos to set the machines as low as they would any other slot.....it does not mean that they DO or have done this with everysingle VP machine on the floor (in fact I know they have not done this, but they have done it with SOME machines, more so in some casinos than others according to what I have been told and what I have been experiencing.)     I learned that for a long time, up until around 2008, the standard practice on most AC casinos was to leave the video poker machines alone and simply allow the paytables to dictate return.....that changed as the times became increasingly DESPERATE, and this really doesnt surprise me lokking back in hindsight.)
 
 
Nonetheless, it took me a long time to accept all this....but now that I have, I have altered my play and practice accordingly.    So I HAVE LEARNED A LOT, much more than anyone else here it seems.  
 
Having explained all this now in simple straightforward terms, I would appreciate it if anyone out there who has an issue with my continued visits to AC or who just cannot "GRASP or get their mind around it", bookmark this thread and refer to this explanation so that I never have to endure anymore obnoxious responses to my sharing of my video poker experience in AC.
 
 
Thanks to ko king for at least TRYING to understand and not pre-judge or pointlessly crticize my posts and what I am saying......and for anyone else who (wrongly) insists I am always "knocking" ac, you are simply tuning in and tuning out the parts you want......I report on MANY positive things about AC and I always maintain how much I like the place and wish it could fix itself.   And If chris christie or whomever wants to listen to me and hire me, I would love the chance to make a difference.
 
 
So until something changes or someone comes along and convinces me of something else, I am going to share and report EXACTLY what I see and experience in AC.....and when I get to Vegas, you can be sure I will report on that too!
{Video Poker IS NOT rigged illegally or anything like that, but it does have SIGNIFICANTLY different regulations regarding Video Poker}
That's the comment I was looking for, I would be shocked to hear of a casino anywhere that wasn't using a state pre-approved program. With that said why would they need 13 approved RNG programs and why would a vp machine be deemed as operating within the state regs as long as it was running within the "curve" of between 83-99.9% payback? Before I started my own company I worked for a guy whose motto was "cost plus 10%" everything we sold was only marked up 10% and we did a ton of business but we worked our tails off 6 days a week and had open house on Sunday once a month. When the guy retired he was replaced by a guy from Fresno, Ca who looked at doing business in a very different way. The cost plus 10% was eliminated and all the supplies were sold at user level, we lost a lot of customers but the guy actually made more profit for the company. Would you rather do $1 million per month at 10% profit or is it better to do $500K per month at 40% profit. The second is the obvious choice because you make twice the amount of money and you don't have to work as hard to get it.

DaBurglar
Video Poker Master
Posts: 4535
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:11 pm

Post by DaBurglar »



Yes Ko King, when you published the response you received from the New Jersey Gaming Commission, that a VP machine is deemed acceptable to the state if it returns "within the curve" of 83% to 99%, you essentially provided the backup to all the posts I had made regarding how VP works in Atlantic city. Everytime I asked the state gamng commission people, and everytime I asked a casino manager or slot manager, "What is the return on the VP machines in Atlantic city Casinos?" I always received vague and strange answers that either echoed the response you received, or I would be told "The casino(s) operate their machines within acceptable state guidlines." I would vary and alter the wording of my questions and inquiries but still essentially asking the same question......still received the same hot air BS.     I have given them numerous opportunitied to simply state or agree with the following:  "Our VP operates on a simple straightforward principle whereby the return of the game is known by examining the paytable."     They never say or agree with or endorse this notion, which we all know is how Nevada Video Poker operates, and how most of us assume or did assume AC operates!

Tedlark
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Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:29 am

Post by Tedlark »

  Am I reading and understanding  ko king's post incorrectly? I don't see where ko king states that they had a conversation with the NJGC and received a response from them? I see where ko king had some of DaBurglar's words intermingled into the post but nothing pointing to a conversation between ko king and the NJGC.
 
  I do see where DaBurglar thanks ko king for providing backup to: "all the posts I had made regarding how vp works in Atlantic City." It appears to me, through dirty glasses mind you, that DaBurglar is thanking himself for providing backup to himself, albeit through ko king?

DaBurglar
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Posts: 4535
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:11 pm

Post by DaBurglar »



in a previous post ko king explained to the forum that he had communicated with the nj gaming people about his own VP experience with a certain machine, and it was the response he received, which he recites again in his post in this thread, about the machine "falling within the curve" of returning between 83%-99%.....that proves what I have been saying for the last few months about my own experience, that VP in AC is simply another form of slots, and any given VP machine you find in AC MIGHT be set as low as 83%, but it definitely is set somewhere within "the curve" as the gaming commission calls it, between 83% and 99%. Again, thanks to Ko King, who actually plays in AC, for sharing his own experience.  I wholeheartedly encourage all other posters in here who have played, or continue to play in AC to post their experiences.   I also encourage you, if you are encountering really bad results in your VP play, to initiate your own "inquiry"......ask the nj gaming commission to examine the machine(s) you played, and see what response you get. 

TsuDoNihm
Forum Regular
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:21 pm

Post by TsuDoNihm »


To me, a return that low is unfathomable. It suggests an average loss rate exceeding $200/hour for single line 25c video poker.

I frequently experience that. At local casinos. At Vegas casinos. And even here playing free games.

But I don't think it is because the machines are somehow rigged.

I think the explanation is quite simple: at some point I've been cursed. If anyone has any good spells or incantations to reverse a gambling curse please let me know.

BillyJoe
Video Poker Master
Posts: 3198
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:00 pm

Post by BillyJoe »

[QUOTE=onemoretry]
I think the explanation is quite simple: at some point I've been cursed. If anyone has any good spells or incantations to reverse a gambling curse please let me know.
Get a picture of yourself with Giada De Laurentiis. I did, made it my thumbnail pic on this site, and IMMEDIATELY was selected as a Random Drawing winner on the daily contest for a TOC entry.
 
This is the first entry I have EVER had to the TOC, so that pic must have been it.
 
Like the beer commercial says "It's only wierd if it doesn't work"

edog743
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:38 pm

Post by edog743 »

We both know BJ that pic had nothing to do with your not so random entry.

Tedlark
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Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:29 am

Post by Tedlark »

DaBurglar nowhere in this thread did ko king mention an 83%-99% curve nor did ko king mention AC. You then write that ko king mentioned something to that effect in another forum but you, YOU, brought it to this forum posting instead of leaving it in the posting where it was. You have a history of trying to hijack a number of forum postings by injecting your anti-AC rhetoric and your theories about paytables and the like into them and then you sit back and wait for responses. Someone could publish a forum post about checkers and you would then somehow reply and bring AC into it; totally trying to drive the original forum topic off focus.
 
  I will continue to respond to your posts negatively until you stop this behavior. You are an easy person to rattle and quite frankly you pose absolutely no challenge at all to me. An easy comparison would be shooting fish in a barrel with a shotgun.
 
  You have made a few contributions to this forum that were mildly entertaining and it stirred some interaction among the forum members and that's exactly what this forum is for. We are all very aware of your position on video poker in AC so why do you keep bringing it up?
 
  Edited to add: DaBurglar you said that you encourage other people to bring up their negative AC vp experience to the forum so that it can verify your experience. Are you really that insecure?
 
  I once had a bad meal at a well known restaurant chain that has locations across the country but I'm not constantly asking people to report if they also had a bad meal at the same restaurant just so I can feel better about myself.

Vman96
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Posts: 3267
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:49 am

Post by Vman96 »

Yeah, I don't recall ko king having any discussion with the new jersey gaming commission. If he did, can he direct me to that original post?

I'm not even sure ko king has even played in AC before.

Oh and to add more fuel to the fire, da burglar originally stated in this thread that he has a 72% return in the last 10 months. Considering how often he is playing, that return is impossible on a 83% return machine. So why don't you just admit they are breaking the law...lol

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