Horseshoe In Tunica for video poker??

Who has your favorite video poker games? Who should have more?
ko king
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Re: Horseshoe In Tunica for video poker??

Post by ko king »

[QUOTE=notes1]

kk, thanks for the info. there may be others, but as you began playing when tunica first opened a casino, you certainly have the ability to give a long historical account of what you have witnessed. it may only be one players account, but the fact that you kept records and play a lot, adds to that credibility, in my opinion.    
 
as a recap, in the first 15 years or so, you had only about 2 winning years from VP only and the other years, your losses fell within acceptible/expected ranges. the last 5 years or so, is when the losses mounted beyond what was to be expected or acceptible. as a result, you have had to change your play, reduce your bet. like you, pre the last 5 years, i was never interested in any of the math. my results were acceptible for the entertainment i received.   
 
this brings me back to my original observation. i/m/o, tunica has above average marketing costs because they need to draw players, yet they seem able to advertise paytables that are better than other casinos, where drawing players is not nearly as expensive. gambling revenue is down, marketing costs are higher and yet advertised pay tables are competitive. i wonder how they do it.

As for koking's data, he shared his 2013 results with the forum while primarily playing 9/6 DDB at the $2 level. He said his return for ~125,000 hands was a little over 95%.

I ran a sim to see how likely a 95% or less return should happen given optimal play. The likelihood was still over 1% unfortunately. So it's possible it was just a run of horrible luck.

$2 9/6 DDB 125,000 hand simulation results

And how can Tunica offer the paytables they do? Well, if you ever go to Tunica, you'll see how few people actually play VP. Horseshoe and Roadhouse have a terribly large VP area compared to the amount who actually play. Of all the placed I've visited with casinos, I think less people play VP in Tunica than anywhere else. So downgrading VP a percentage point is not going to do a ton for them.

Getting people to zone out on the 85% slot machines and still be willing to come back is what the marketing dollars really want to focus on.[/QUOTE]




































































                                                                                                                                                                                                        
 
Vman you bring up a good and interesting point, I fall withing the possibility of just having horrible luck, very convienient for the casinos, bad for me as a player. To this day I continue to fall into the same catagory of "just having a run of bad luck". You're also right as to how few people play video poker in Tunica anymore, didn't used to be like that, every casino was full of players and they were wearing the vp machines out every single night, I didn't even bother going of Friday or Saturday night because I figured it would be impossible to get a machine to play. Isn't it odd that theses casinos were once full of players, now they're almost like a ghost town even though the pay tables are still pretty decent. Talk to any local player and they will all say the same, something changed, these aren't the same machines we used to play. I know where to find most of the ex Tunica video poker players and it's not in Tunica, they're still playing and I run into a few of them now and then. These people say they still go to Tunica every once in while to see if anythings changed, but it hasn't. I know where to find TDB with a very respectable 9/7 pay table in the Tunica area but it does me no good, the bigger hits just don't show up like they used to. People just didn't up and quit playing vp in Tunica because they were still enjoying themselves, they got sick of getting their butts kicked.

notes1
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Post by notes1 »



kk, another quality post. you have kept long term, detailed records. you even visited your local gaming control group. you never made an accusation of illegality. and, you have a history of playing in tunica, since it's gambling inception. you simply feel the machines are different. all you wanted were answers to your questions. instead, you got the brush off.  but, no matter how well you document your results (losses over the past few years), report on your experience with the very folks who are supposed to protecting your play, it will not matter to some. they will find some logical, mathematical formula that makes your results fall in line with expectations. they will somehow justify the regualtors lack of interest. and, they will state that the casinos have no reason to adjust the machines to increase profitability. then they will all gather on the 'wizard' site and discuss what mathematical fools some folks are.       

ko king
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Post by ko king »


kk, another quality post. you have kept long term, detailed records. you even visited your local gaming control group. you never made an accusation of illegality. and, you have a history of playing in tunica, since it's gambling inception.
 
you simply feel the machines are different. all you wanted were answers to your questions. instead, you got the brush off. 
 
but, no matter how well you document your results (losses over the past few years), report on your experience with the very folks who are supposed to protecting your play, it will not matter to some. they will find some logical, mathematical formula that makes your results fall in line with expectations. they will somehow justify the regualtors lack of interest. and, they will state that the casinos have no reason to adjust the machines to increase profitability. then they will all gather on the 'wizard' site and discuss what mathematical fools some folks are.
 
 
I've been making post on this site for many years now and Ive always said the same exact thing, I don't believe thereis a casino anywhere around my area that would outright cheat or rig any game. Every single game inside all the casinos are using state approved programs, so they are legal. To that I say so what !!!
I've had several converstaions with Shadowman concerning the games and he stands pat on nothing has or could possibly change. When ask if he plays in my area he plainly said he did not or would not consider playing the vp in this area.
Now I'm sure Bob Dancer is a fine fellow, no doubt he knows more about the games than I ever will know. Until he comes over to this are and sits down and plays 500K hands of TDB vp with a pay table of 9/7 nothing he says or sells means anything to me. Tunica has become such a small market area and almost all the casinos are hurting for players with the exception of a few (Horseshoe and maybe Gold Strike and Hollywood). All of the other casinos are chasing the penny players and are trying to maintain with a very limited amount of players. Players like myself are few and far between in Tunica anymore, I can sit at the bartops that offer .5 cent, .25 cent, .50 cent and $1 denomination TDB with a 9/7 pay table and play thousands of hands at max play and not jit a decent hand trip after trip. I look around and notice that the few that are there playing are playing .5 cent Keno or .5 cent DDB at 1 credit. There's no doubt they want to get their hands on every $100 bill I have in my pocket because they need it so bad. The main reason I don't quit is that there are so many on this site that say I'm just having a run of bad luck and they're sure nothing has changed, in other words keep playing the numbers will come back around. I don't mean to say I never hit anything because that would be a lie, I just can't hit the hands like I used to and the odds and statistics don't seem to apply to the games anymore. I hit a handpay just the other day, just one which is pretty normal now days. I've had that one handpay in 7 trips playing $1 9/7 TDB at max play and that's just crazy. Somehow someway they have managed to space out or control the big hands and still remain within the regulations. You do the math, 7 trips at around 4-5 hours each of playing right at 900 hands per hour (I'm a fast player), thats around or above 25K hands and only managed one single hand pay.
 
 
    

onemoretry
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Post by onemoretry »

Somehow someway they have managed to space out or control the big hands and still remain within the regulations.
In most jurisdictions, "spacing out or controlling" the big hands would be absolutely illegal. They cannot do that and "still remain within the regulations".

Vman96
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Post by Vman96 »

[QUOTE=ko king] Somehow someway they have managed to space out or control the big hands and still remain within the regulations.
In most jurisdictions, "spacing out or controlling" the big hands would be absolutely illegal. They cannot do that and "still remain within the regulations". [/QUOTE]

Yeah, this is right for Mississippi and many other states.

But I would be concerned if my records were consistently dismal.

For 25k hands, zero to one hand pays is about a 1% occurrence. For 36k hands, it balloons to about 1 in 1320. These are events that should not consistently happen in a "fair" game.

ko king
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Post by ko king »

[QUOTE=ko king] Somehow someway they have managed to space out or control the big hands and still remain within the regulations.
In most jurisdictions, "spacing out or controlling" the big hands would be absolutely illegal. They cannot do that and "still remain within the regulations". [/QUOTE]


                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
Well you got me cornered with that reply, I guess it would be illegal according to the regulations. I guess I would have to counter that with, how would it be illegal if the program was approved, I'm guessing the gaming commission is the one that approves the programs. I wish I had more trust and faith in those put in charge of insuring that all things are fair and uncompromised. But you're right it would be illegal and we can't have that because next thing you know big corporations and very wealthy folks might start to get the idea that politicians and government officials could be bought. In all seriousness though most if not all of the casinos in this area have seen a steep decline in revenue, they've laid off employees, cut back on comps and all sorts of other cost cutting measures. There's little to no doubt that they've cut slot pay back percentages to the bone, what makes vp so sacred and untouchable, a few written lines. On top of all that where in the written regulations do you see the pay back percentages for the advertised pay tables on vp machines. I haven't read the regulations before but I just about bet they don't say a machine should hit quad aces w/kicker 1 out of every 16,236 hands on average. For me that would mean I should hit quad aces w/kicker about once every four trips to the casino on average and that's not happening, it used to but not anymore.

ko king
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:13 pm

Post by ko king »

[QUOTE=onemoretry] [QUOTE=ko king] Somehow someway they have managed to space out or control the big hands and still remain within the regulations.
In most jurisdictions, "spacing out or controlling" the big hands would be absolutely illegal. They cannot do that and "still remain within the regulations". [/QUOTE]

Yeah, this is right for Mississippi and many other states.

But I would be concerned if my records were consistently dismal.

For 25k hands, zero to one hand pays is about a 1% occurrence. For 36k hands, it balloons to about 1 in 1320. These are events that should not consistently happen in a "fair" game.[/QUOTE]

                                                                                                                                                                                  
 
I really don't know what to say, most of the people I know that still play fairly often think it's because of all the people playing at the .5 cent level and only playing 1 credit. These .5 cent folks are playing the same exact machines we play and they say they hit big hands all the time. I'm really at a loss when it comes to a reasonable explanation as to why play has gotten so tough for me. I've quit playing $5 and $2 denomination in Tunica but I do still play $2 denom at another casino, problem with that place is it's so crowded and full of cigar smokers. I'm down to playing only $1 denom in Tunica and playing machines with 9/7 pay tables for TDB and 9/6 DDB. I'm still using the same size bankroll I used when I played only $2 denom but the hit's just aren't coming like they should.

notes1
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Post by notes1 »



let's do a little reality check on tunica. the recession hits at the very time casinos are sprouting up around the country. suddenly, casino destinations that offer little else see their business dry up. the newest, largest CET property closes and folks are being laid off en masse.  casino representatives go to elected officals/gamingcontrol and say, we have a new software program that is random, but somehow produces a more favorable result for the casinos. if this program is not approved, they tell these elected folks that there will be more closings and more folks unemployed. what do you think they are going to do, they have to approve it. are they going to stand on high moral grounds and say no, because it does not comply with nevada regs. if they do so, they lose their main employer base, their main source of tax revenue and likely thrown out of office. i have no idea if this happened, but i could see it. trying to survive, trying to save jobs including their own, will lead some to do most anything. their thinking could very well be that they are only taking money from mostly out of town folks and helping their own.

Vman96
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Post by Vman96 »



let's do a little reality check on tunica. the recession hits at the very time casinos are sprouting up around the country. suddenly, casino destinations that offer little else see their business dry up. the newest, largest CET property closes and folks are being laid off en masse.  casino representatives go to elected officals/gamingcontrol and say, we have a new software program that is random, but somehow produces a more favorable result for the casinos. if this program is not approved, they tell these elected folks that there will be more closings and more folks unemployed. what do you think they are going to do, they have to approve it. are they going to stand on high moral grounds and say no, because it does not comply with nevada regs. if they do so, they lose their main employer base, their main source of tax revenue and likely thrown out of office. i have no idea if this happened, but i could see it. trying to survive, trying to save jobs including their own, will lead some to do most anything. their thinking could very well be that they are only taking money from mostly out of town folks and helping their own.

It's possible a scenario like that could happen, but doubtful. Mainly because a move like that still wouldn't save Tunica. Even when the VP paytables were great at Roadhouse earlier this decade (literally every game at quarters and higher was "full pay", including 40/10/6 DDB), the player volume still wasn't outstanding. There is a serious lack of interest in VP, especially in Tunica. Slot revenue probably outdoes VP revenue by 10 to 1.

I wonder where VP would be right now without Super Times Pay and Ultimate X. Most other "gimmick games" have been bombs lately. Hell where would VP be without IGT coming up with Double Double Bonus even??

At least with slots, you're better distracted with a video-game like atmosphere as your money gets sucked away by the bad payback.

notes1
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Post by notes1 »



KK disputes your statement that VP was not popular in tunica years ago. he has been there since the beginning. businesses and government jurisdictions have been making deals since forever. it might be over taxes, utilities, even taking over private property through condemnation. the scenario i created was just that, a creation and i stated that. the bigger point is that you have an economy that is hurting badly. it is not diversified, we have seen many small towns across america turn into ghost towns, when their one and only employment base closes up. to save jobs, to save their community, an entire series of casino friendly ammendments may have been approved. who knows what might have been included. instead of living in the idealistic world, for a moment, trade places with the governing body of tunica. to save your town, to save your neighbors jobs, to protect your own employment, would you not consider most anything?

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