Bankroll management questions

[Frank Kneeland]

 I have a few bankroll managment senarios for you to answer.......if you would
 
                            Is it better to...........
 
1. Set a pre determined amount (X) before starting a session
 
2. Set a session legnth based on time ie= 3 hours
 
 Lets say Start BKRL $300- 25c -bonus poker and DDB
 
The problems that I have found are sometimes I can run a 20 for hours. Then sometimes I get smoked right out the gate. I understand the huge difference between the 2 games I listed. BP , JOB for me seems like only one thing to hit. Just wondering about some different perspectives.Bankroll questions always intrigue me. You wanted different perspectives, here's mine.Setting session bankroll limits is an almost totally pointless endeavor only employeed by non-professional gamblers seeking to slow down their loss rate by interjecting contrived pauses into their ever downward spiral of lifetime losing. While slowing down losing might be a good thing, not playing at all if you are losing would be a far better course of action.The only bankroll number with meaningful significance is your risk of ruin playing a certain positive game with a certain finite bankroll. If the game is negative the RoR is always 100% since RoR is calculated on infinite hands. If the game is positive then its variance and overall return will dictate how much one needs to play that type of game. It's not about how much you have on you, it's about how much you have total in the world to allocate to gambling. Here I recommend enough bankroll to have a 1% or less RoR.It is utterly pointless to limit your play in the course of a day based on results if you are playing with a positive expectancy. It is similarly pointless to play at all if you are playing with a negitive expectancy and all the loss limits in the world won't change that...they will only slow the fall.My suggestion: Don't jump off the cliff.

[brmcc74]

Frank, Are you implying that as long as Im playing a positive game that I should just play into oblivion? Should I play for an ultimate goal such as rf?  I usually take 300 and play quarters. Im trying to figure when a good time to leave would be if Im up related to original BKRL. I do play positive games and often find myself up only to give it back very promptly seemingly. I have so many times lost a total that took allday to achieve only to lose within an hour. Just like jumping off a cliff.

[Frank Kneeland]

Frank, Are you implying that as long as Im playing a positive game that I should just play into oblivion? Should I play for an ultimate goal such as rf?  I usually take 300 and play quarters. Im trying to figure when a good time to leave would be if Im up related to original BKRL. I do play positive games and often find myself up only to give it back very promptly seemingly. I have so many times lost a total that took allday to achieve only to lose within an hour. Just like jumping off a cliff. It appears you have the common issue of partitioned time sense. The only result that matters is your total life time result from the first hand you played until the last.You cannot leave a casino after a goal unless you never play again. Otherwise you just start back from where you left off. Sessions and days are illusory.

[New2vp]

Well, you may wish to leave when you are too tired to continue play or too hungry to continue not to eat.At some point you may adjudge that creature comforts dictate or you simply value your time doing other things more than you value the expected profit from your positive play.  For example, most people who are not exceptional multi-taskers must interrupt their positive play to, say, post on internet forums.I think I largely agree with what Frank has said, but I'll say it in a different way.  With a positive play that is not a progressive play, you would be better off (profit-wise) if you planned to allocate the time that you wanted to devote to the play rather than tracking a daily (or session) win or loss goal.  Certainly bankroll management then would suggest that short-term you have enough with you to allow you with high probability to play for the entire planned period.  Longer term, you want to have the resources behind you (but it does not have to be with you in the casino) NOT to "go bust;" this might dictate the denomination that you can play with the most comfort.  Your expected profit on an advantage play increases as you play more and decreases as you play less unless there are triggers such as differing comps at different points.  But people do value other things more than making money; people with 40-hour per week jobs could make more money if they worked two of them.  Economists would say that you should engage in the activities from which you derive the greatest utility, which means that sometimes you should stop your vp play and do something else.

[Frank Kneeland]

Well, you may wish to leave when you are too tired to continue play or too hungry to continue not to eat.At some point you may adjudge that creature comforts dictate or you simply value your time doing other things more than you value the expected profit from your positive play.  For example, most people who are not exceptional multi-taskers must interrupt their positive play to, say, post on internet forums.I think I largely agree with what Frank has said, but I'll say it in a different way.  With a positive play that is not a progressive play, you would be better off (profit-wise) if you planned to allocate the time that you wanted to devote to the play rather than tracking a daily (or session) win or loss goal.  Certainly bankroll management then would suggest that short-term you have enough with you to allow you with high probability to play for the entire planned period.  Longer term, you want to have the resources behind you (but it does not have to be with you in the casino) NOT to "go bust;" this might dictate the denomination that you can play with the most comfort.  Your expected profit on an advantage play increases as you play more and decreases as you play less unless their triggers such as differing comps at different points.  But people do value other things more than making money; people with 40-hour per week jobs could make more money if they worked two of them.  Economists would say that you should engage in the activities from which you derive the greatest utility, which means that sometimes you should stop your vp play and do something else.

Yes I agree with all this. The best goals to set when entering casinos are ones with no random variable. Things like a time limit, points limit, etc... The random fluctuations of the machines should have no bearing on when you leave or stay, since they are outside your control. Plan your life around things within your control.Lastly if you are worried (or stressed) about the amount of money you could lose in a single day, you are playing WAY over your head. WAY!!!I'd have to run super bad for six months straight everyday before I'd start getting worried...and only in the seventh month would the virgin sacrifices be required.

[jm002546]

[QUOTE=New2vp]Well, you may wish to leave when you are too tired to continue play or too hungry to continue not to eat.At some point you may adjudge that creature comforts dictate or you simply value your time doing other things more than you value the expected profit from your positive play.  For example, most people who are not exceptional multi-taskers must interrupt their positive play to, say, post on internet forums.I think I largely agree with what Frank has said, but I'll say it in a different way.  With a positive play that is not a progressive play, you would be better off (profit-wise) if you planned to allocate the time that you wanted to devote to the play rather than tracking a daily (or session) win or loss goal.  Certainly bankroll management then would suggest that short-term you have enough with you to allow you with high probability to play for the entire planned period.  Longer term, you want to have the resources behind you (but it does not have to be with you in the casino) NOT to "go bust;" this might dictate the denomination that you can play with the most comfort.  Your expected profit on an advantage play increases as you play more and decreases as you play less unless their triggers such as differing comps at different points.  But people do value other things more than making money; people with 40-hour per week jobs could make more money if they worked two of them.  Economists would say that you should engage in the activities from which you derive the greatest utility, which means that sometimes you should stop your vp play and do something else.

Yes I agree with all this. The best goals to set when entering casinos are ones with no random variable. Things like a time limit, points limit, etc... The random fluctuations of the machines should have no bearing on when you leave or stay, since they are outside your control. Plan your life around things within your control.Lastly if you are worried (or stressed) about the amount of money you could lose in a single day, you are playing WAY over your head. WAY!!!I'd have to run super bad for six months straight everyday before I'd start getting worried...and only in the seventh month would the virgin sacrifices be required.[/QUOTE]I really don't have a risk of ruin, playing FPDW at 25 cents.  I would consider stepping up, except for those damn W2G's.  I'm not intimating that I am cheating Uncle.  I can't stay away from the megabucks, etc..  But itemizing deductions is not practical for me.I can't pay taxes on my royals, that takes away about .5% of the juice.   I'll forever be pissed at Palms.  I did the kiosk deal one day and won $1000.  But could I take it in free play?  Hell no.  They insisted I pay taxes on it.  Maybe that's why their business fell flat on their butt.

[Frank Kneeland]

Frank, Are you implying that as long as Im playing a positive game that I should just play into oblivion? Should I play for an ultimate goal such as rf?  I usually take 300 and play quarters. Im trying to figure when a good time to leave would be if Im up related to original BKRL. I do play positive games and often find myself up only to give it back very promptly seemingly. I have so many times lost a total that took all day to achieve only to lose within an hour. Just like jumping off a cliff. I answered this poorly. Sorry I'm rusty.Set time limits: 2 hours, 4 hours, etc...Set Point Goals: 5000 points, 10,000 points...These should be designed not to put ANY strain on your body and maximize your casino perks without going over the threshold of diminishing returns. In most Vegas casinos for instance about 100,000 in coin in a month is the most you'd want to get in any one casino. More than this is just spinning your wheels (there are exceptions).Oblivion is all our fates, but one should not get there in a casino. For you as a person, days begin and end. For your gambling results, which are a combination of random independent trials, there was also a beginning and eventually there will be and ending, what there isn't is a MIDDLE.It's really hard to understand if you employ linear thinking.

[jm002546]

  I disagree with all of the things said, sort of.  Play as long as you WANT to.  You know when you lose your focus.  Or, when the machine just insults the hell out of you.  I mean those near misses, teases, etc. when the dang machine seems to be almost humanand just humiliating you.  Take a break.  Change machines. Anything.  I play deuces and there are times when you keep holding two deuces and ending up with 3k.  Hold 3rf and get forth rf card.  Hold two pair and keep drawing a card to the pair you discarded. Repeatedly ending up with 4 wild royal. Exasperating, yes.      What I should have said is don't play when you are not at, or near, your best.  

[Frank Kneeland]

  I disagree with all of the things said, sort of.  Play as long as you WANT to.  You know when you lose your focus.  Or, when the machine just insults the hell out of you.  I mean those near misses, teases, etc. when the dang machine seems to be almost humanand just humiliating you.  Take a break.  Change machines. Anything.  I play deuces and there are times when you keep holding two deuces and ending up with 3k.  Hold 3rf and get forth rf card.  Hold two pair and keep drawing a card to the pair you discarded. Repeatedly ending up with 4 wild royal. Exasperating, yes.      What I should have said is don't play when you are not at, or near, your best.  


Though you disagreed with me it may surprise you to learn I do not disagree with you. Playing only as long as you want to is far closer to what I do myself. Of course I never want to play very long and always have some goal in mind that involves financial gain. This isn't the case for all. The original poster was talking about loss limits as goals. I was attempting to provide more logical goals that do not involve a random variable.We must also keep in mind that positive expectation gambling is rarely about what we want and usually only about what's possible. If one does what one wants our minds often lead us astray.The frustration you describe from random chance is disturbing because nothing that happens on a video poker machine should ever be a cause for concern.  A variation of Murphy's Law holds sway.Anything that can happen will happen.  The unexpected is commonplace and only the expected should be surprising. ~Frank's Law

[jm002546]

  Well, I disagreed with you "sort of." That meant I didn't really disagree.  If you can keep from being pissed during those stretches where you can't hit ANYTHING, than that probably explains how you can do this professionally.  But my best advice is play at a level where you can't conceivably lose your bankroll.  Can anyone out-vague that?