State whether or not you have won....

[Carcounter]

Overall, a net loser from 2010. But not a lot. Certainly something I can live with. There are still 99.5% games available in AC. From 2007 thru 2010 I was a net winner, but there were better games available then, so that probably explains that. All American, 9/5 Double Joker etc.

[EDC1977]

All things considered since 2010, even DaBurglar.

[olds442jetaway]

Isn't that something KO. I am between 95 and 96% for the same time period. It doesn't take much math to see what I could have bought or spent on other things. 1 million hands a year even at a dollar a hand. I cringe when the math is done. We have had a good time though, but for me the casino wore out it's welcome. So for 2015, they are going to get the pennies out of my tin cup at best. Too bad I can't play the violin. Might even be a few nickels and dimes in that cup.

[billslim]

Well I was a Big As_ loser. Still can't believe how bad it got.

[DaBurglar]

I lost. Fact is I don't know anyone who can say they honestly won. ....................ever hit a hand pay, not one. Now I still hold on to the hope that nothing has really changed and it's possible it hasn't but it's still hard to not think that maybe it has.Excellent post Ko King, a lot of good points......I liked your discussion of how a 98.88% game fits into your plans as a regular VP player.......we all accept the house edge on the machines we play, and we try to select the best games in terms of THEORETICAL payback %  with a corresponding emphasis on FUN and entertainment in that we have to be able to ENJOY the game we play in order to justify spending our money and potentially LOSING it....even the so called "putrid paytables" that only pay 95-97%, seem to EAT our bankrolls at a much faster rate than 5% at a time when you really stop to look at the way things transpire and progress...at least that has been my experience the last 5 years in AC.......I rarely play a game worse than the 99%  8/5 BP games that are ubiquitous in AC, but if I do it is usually a game like DDB which even the worst paytables still has the LARGE premium hits that can repair a bankroll quickly, but it never pans out that way, not like it used to in LAs Vegas during the heyday of gambling between 1997 thru 2005  or thereabouts........

[DaBurglar]

Overall, a net loser from 2010. But not a lot. Certainly something I can live with. There are still 99.5% games available in AC. From 2007 thru 2010 I was a net winner, but there were better games available then, so that probably explains that. All American, 9/5 Double Joker etc. Car, do you still go to AC often, if so, how often?    Is Borgata the ONLY place you play these days?I think the reduced paytables ARE clearly a factor, but it is NOT the only factor, nor is it even the PRIMARY factor to explain your modest losses.....again, only my opinion here, but I would surmise that if you kept detailed hand by hand records of your play in AC casinos the last 4 - 5 years, and compared them to your play the previous 5 years or back further, you'd see major differences in terms of the total  "DUD/Non-paying" hands frequency.......non-paying dud hands have nothing to do with the paytable.    Combine a greater dud frequency with crappier paytables and you have a clear recipe for losing consistently ......I would love to hear your stories of AC prior to 2009 when I first started to visit.....

[DaBurglar]

All things considered since 2010, even DaBurglar.Thank you Ed.......just out of curiosity, where do you play most of the time?

[DaBurglar]

Well I was a Big As_ loser. Still can't believe how bad it got.Dang....sorry to hear it bill.....where did you have these awful results?  Vegas?  Ac?  elsewhere?

[Tedlark]

[QUOTE=BobDancer]If you can't include mailers, free play, drawings, and other cash received from casinos which was generated by my video poker play --- I'm losing.If that money weren't there, I wouldn't be playing. It's not my job to support casinos.But if you do include all cash items, I'm winning. Comps are extra.Thanks for responding Bob,  I appreciate, understand and even agree with what you have stated in this post, but again, my focus and emphasis with this thread is to examine ONLY the "machines-results-trends" aspect of this ongoing "debate".....The reason is simple:  not everyone plays at the same level of denomination, the same amount of TOTAL TIME (i.e.  a professional player such as Yourself, the one and only Bob Dancer, versus serious but lesser known players who perhaps play two or three days a week, or more...versus the twice monthly players ....versus the once every three months  versus the twice yearly, etc.)        The only real COMMON denominator is HOW the machines act, and what if any trends and characteristics they notice with their results over the time periods being discussed.....Obviously this is not going to be "perfect" nor will it provide a true blue CONCLUSION to anything in terms of ending debates, but it will at least settle the simple question of WHAT are people saying/perceiving/noticing with their VP play results over the last 5 years versus the previous years...that's all.    But it is a start to actually defining the issue.....FYI -- ideally we would not see anyone decisively stating that they are either getting WORSE results over the lasr 5 years compared to the previous 5 years, nor would we expect a lot of people to say they are WINNING BIG over the same comparitive time period.....we should see MOST people saying "there is little if any perceived difference" other than "some" years being up and some being down due to expected variance.    My point all along is that VP over the last 4-5 years has seen things deteriorate well below and beyond the expected boundaries of statistical variance......the games simply do not behave or yield the same type of results (i.e.  there are a lot more "DUDS" or non-paying hands in the overall statistical mix and this has resulted in greater and more consistent losses.I apologize for elaborating here but since Bob went above and beyond what I asked for (not that I blame him, but perhaps my request was somewhat unrealistic), I felt behooved to clarify and discuss.....Please, continue the input, thanks a bunch.    This makes for good, RELEVANT, interesting reading and discussion without the Rancor......[/QUOTE]



There is so much more information that you would need to gather in order for you to put together anything that would even closely resemble an accurate study of what you seek.

When you are looking for trends do you take into account where people have played? For example if I traveled to Tunica and played how would these stats fit into your model?

You mentioned playing different denominations but what about the size of the bet?

This "study" cannot be accurate even with a 5 year span.How many players here actually keep such detailed records? You yourself said you abandoned the practice a year or so ago.

[Carcounter]

I usually go once a week, for an afternoon. Only live/work a little over an hour away. Have previously played everywhere in AC. Actually anywhere a good game could be found. Prior to 2007 there were 100% games at various casinos. Some with cashback/comps, some by themselves. I admit I don't scout anymore, so maybe there is stuff out there, I'm not aware of. I am typically busy working and am not an AP. Just a rec player with a math/engineering background that played poker as a youngster. Never knew VP existed until a 1993 trip to Las Vegas, then started playing in AC. The Borgata fits my needs, not wanting to shill for them, but nothing comes close in AC. Love the restaurants, atmosphere and selection of 99.5 + games, although they have started to remove some. My VP days may be numbered if they remove them all.