Video Poker is a Beatable Game

[BobDancer]

Bob are you saying long term winners on VP alone? Or to say with all things included like Free play, gifts, gas cards, drawing winnings, free rooms, elt. only then you know winners playing VP. Good question.I almost never play over-100% games in and of themselves. They do not exist except for very low stakes. In Vegas you can survive on these games earning $10K or so a year. I'm not interested in that level of income --- although when I first moved to Vegas, that's all I could manage for a couple of years .---- although my game of choice was blackjack at the time I usually play games in the 98.5%-99.7% range and need to depend on other goodies to make the games profitable.I include things I can monetize --- including free play, cash in the mail, "show up money," drawings, and such. Gift cards are part of the winning process --- although I don't include them in my calculations. In 2013 and 2014 I collected some $30K in gift cards each year. This year, the games have changed at the casinos that offer them and I'll only pick up $2K in gift cards.I count free play when I redeem it. In sum, i have between $10K and $20K in unredeemed free play. So long as it stays unredeemed, it doesn't appear on my books. Once I cash it out, I record it. If it were December 30 and I was down for the year, I'd go around collecting this free play. There's no tax advantage for carrying a gambling loss forward. But if I were ahead, which is usually the case, there's no need to pay taxes on it. So I leave it there.I do not include food and room in my calculation. If I needed that to make a game positive, I'd just stay home. If I collected air fare twice for the same trip, the second collection can fairly be considered gambling winnings --- although I don't include that in my calculations..At the Palms, for example, you get 3/4 off of the buffet price for your entire party if you are at the highest slot club tier. Getting a lunch buffet for $3.50 apiece for a party of four is a good deal, but I don't record that in my log. I really wouldn't know what number to put down.I do not include cruises --- although I average 3 or 4 weeks of this a year. I also need to pay something like $400 or so per person for these "free" cruises. I do not count that as a gambling loss. Since I'm a writer and often write about what happens on a cruise, there are certain deductions I can take for these expenses. But those are not gambling deductions.I do not include concert tickets --- although I've gone to hundreds of concerts and other special events. If I regularly sold meals, rooms, or tickets (which I've VERY rarely done), then yes that could be included. But I don't.As you can tell, the exact definition of what is "profit" at gambling and what isn't is elusive. No two gamblers describe it exactly the same way. drawings are included --- and they have great variance. There were years I averaged $100K per year from drawings. These have tightened up. This year Bonnie and I together are up between $10K and $20K in drawings. (She doesn't gamble, but I gamble on her card where allowed.)I have received 9 cars from casinos, which I do count as gambling winnings, but it's been 4 years since that happened. I suspect it will happen again, but it's impossible to know that now for sure.Do I know for sure what other gamblers make? No I don't. We don't go around publicizing these numbers --- and even if we did, everybody counts up the numbers differently. Still, there are a number of players whose sole source of income is gambling --- and has been for years. Chatting with them, I can usually tell if somebody has what it takes to succeed or not. 

[DaBurglar]

 
Good question.I almost never play over-100% games in and of themselves. They do not exist except for very low stakes. In Vegas you can survive on these games earning $10K or so a year. I'm not interested in that level of income --- although when I first moved to Vegas, that's all I could manage for a couple of years .---- although my game of choice was blackjack at the time I usually play games in the 98.5%-99.7% range and need to depend on other goodies to make the games profitable.I include things I can monetize --- including free play, cash in the mail, "show up money," drawings, and such. Gift cards are part of the winning process --- although I don't include them in my calculations. In 2013 and 2014 I collected some $30K in gift cards each year. This year, the games have changed at the casinos that offer them and I'll only pick up $2K in gift cards.I count free play when I redeem it. In sum, i have between $10K and $20K in unredeemed free play. So long as it stays unredeemed, it doesn't appear on my books. Once I cash it out, I record it. If it were December 30 and I was down for the year, I'd go around collecting this free play. There's no tax advantage for carrying a gambling loss forward. But if I were ahead, which is usually the case, there's no need to pay taxes on it. So I leave it there.I do not include food and room in my calculation. If I needed that to make a game positive, I'd just stay home. If I collected air fare twice for the same trip, the second collection can fairly be considered gambling winnings --- although I don't include that in my calculations..At the Palms, for example, you get 3/4 off of the buffet price for your entire party if you are at the highest slot club tier. Getting a lunch buffet for $3.50 apiece for a party of four is a good deal, but I don't record that in my log. I really wouldn't know what number to put down.I do not include cruises --- although I average 3 or 4 weeks of this a year. I also need to pay something like $400 or so per person for these "free" cruises. I do not count that as a gambling loss. Since I'm a writer and often write about what happens on a cruise, there are certain deductions I can take for these expenses. But those are not gambling deductions.I do not include concert tickets --- although I've gone to hundreds of concerts and other special events. If I regularly sold meals, rooms, or tickets (which I've VERY rarely done), then yes that could be included. But I don't.As you can tell, the exact definition of what is "profit" at gambling and what isn't is elusive. No two gamblers describe it exactly the same way. drawings are included --- and they have great variance. There were years I averaged $100K per year from drawings. These have tightened up. This year Bonnie and I together are up between $10K and $20K in drawings. (She doesn't gamble, but I gamble on her card where allowed.)I have received 9 cars from casinos, which I do count as gambling winnings, but it's been 4 years since that happened. I suspect it will happen again, but it's impossible to know that now for sure.Do I know for sure what other gamblers make? No I don't. We don't go around publicizing these numbers --- and even if we did, everybody counts up the numbers differently. Still, there are a number of players whose sole source of income is gambling --- and has been for years. Chatting with them, I can usually tell if somebody has what it takes to succeed or not.Well, er.......Bob I appreciate what you shared in this latest post, but in all honesty, you actually opened up several areas which tend to explain (and are the reason WHY) some people are so skeptical of people like you and what you do......I've plotted in RED and in a couple areas italics some examples of how your own account tends to at the very least raise questions (and at the most undermine) your position as a succsful pro gambler.This whole  AMORPHOUS, inexact, loosey goosey way of accounting and adding up things is at the heart of a lot of uncertainty and doubt about what you do, surely you must understand this?   When YOU yourself say things like:  As you can tell, the exact
definition of what is "profit" at gambling and what isn't is elusive. No
two gamblers describe it exactly the same way.   this really can make some people scratch their heads.....it's because on one hand you seemingly define, and defend, what you as a professional gambler represent so passionately, confidently (and well) .....but then along come these nebulous definitions of something as basic (and critical) as "profit"....I myself GET what you are saying, and how certain individuals might define and classify "profit" differently, but I also understand how others might see this as a huge red flag/question mark ..... as you say yourself, gamblers like you typically do NOT share or publicize what they make or earn (or lose), so right there, this lack of transparency, while totally understandable (hey I do not go around telling people what I make consulting or on Ebay) tends also to promote skepticism.  Same goes with what you clearly indicate are the VERY significant tightening and shrinking of important elements of advantage play, such as money from "drawings", and the ever popular erstwhile  "GIFT CARDS"....i think EVERYONE on this forum is in agreement that the past 5 years or so especially, casinos in general have pulled way back in ALL aspects of freebies, comps, freeplay, cashback, giveaways, contests, sweepstakes, promos etc etc etc.   Here you are indicating the extent it impacts YOU and it thus lends credence and weight to the Skeptics argument about just how freasible it is, in this day and age, to gamble professionally for a living and succeed.....again, surely you must see this ...... but in fairness, I also clearly see that what you are saying is that it may be more difficult today than it ever has been to gamble professionally for a living, but it is still NOT, by any stretch, impossible.Your final comment, about how you can pretty much "tell" if someone "has what it takes" or is the real deal when it comes to being a professional gambler, I find really interesting:    I myself count as one of my strengths my "bull**** detector"....when it comes to gambling and other areas, I am pretty adept at getting a "GENERAL" picture of the true situation, or validity, of someone who insists they are a winning player at whatever game they claim.....it is not that difficult (notice i say "GENERAL".....I admit I do not have YOU in depth, detailed info or expertise in defining the  everyday activity of an advantage video poker player, but I know enough to tell if someone is a legit or phony "pro".Aside from your reputation and fame, its obvious to me you are the real deal.....but unlike many people here, I would wager my confidence in you and what you represent stems from certain 'small' details you have left or divulged, such as the time you admitted how you utilize and rely upon certain "insider tricks and knowledge" to help you along in your profession (and how you typically DO NOT share these insider secrets!)     In my example above of the several "local" acquaintances I have known over the years who are full time "pro Gamblers", it took at least several years and a lot of divulging of details (and lots of observance of actual events or facts by me) before I accepted that they were indeed SUCCESSFUL gamblers, but I have known far far more total abject failures or "posers/wannabes" when it comes to gambling.....ironically in the case of two of the gamblers I know above, it was in fact "DETAILED" knowledge of things like actual winnings / income, as well as an odd tax return or two (lol ) which proved to me they are the real deal.I would submit, Bob, that your case, and standing, might benefit from a higher level of transparency to "prove" to people like Phil (and others) who doubt you that you are indeed for real and what you preach is not simply a "matter of faith".....just a thought, but not one that I myself need!

[Tedlark]

DaBurglar you have been one of the most anti Bob Dancer posters on this site. You have questioned Bob and his methods long before FP and now you use those same people as cover so that you can again load up on Bob in your last paragraph. For you to ask Bob to be more transparent for the sake of other people and not you is quite laughable. Bob Dancer has made his bones and does not, in my opinion, owe you or anyone else more transparency than he has already provided.

By the way: as much as my eyes appreciate your use of larger font it, in itself, does not make you right.

[BobDancer]

Others among us perhaps place a higher value on health and relationships, and thus, more power to us. Each to his own, and full respect for our life choices.The "facts" listed by Rascal are basically correct. It was quite a bit more nuanced that what was posted, but his report fairly summarizes an article I wrote about it. I'm not proud of what happened. However, if the identical situation happened again, everything considered, the result would end up the same. Shirley and I came up with the best solution to solve the problem.It's a mistake, I believe, to conclude that this happened because I was a professional gambler. Did Michael Jordan's divorce happen because he was a basketball player? Did Brad Pitt's split from Jenn happen strictly because he was an actor? Did the guy at end of my street who also went through a divorce have this happen to him because he's a plumber? These things happen to people from all walks of life.You can choose not to like my lifestyle for any reason you want. Playing the "he's a sinner because he went through a divorce" card doesn't help you make a decision about what to do with your own life. Whoever your hero is, assuming he's a human, I promise you he's also less than perfect.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=TedLark]You have questioned Bob and his methods long before FP and now you use
those same people as cover so that you can again load up on Bob in your
last paragraph.[/quote]Just to clear things up, I never said Bob Dancer was evil or a sinner and I certainly never said I blamed his divorce on his career choice.   That is totally unfair in my opinion.  What I question is his claim of making 6 figures a year on video poker winnings alone and his promotion of professional gambling as a career.  I also never questioned his strategy or methodology as long as you have the same opportunities available to you.

[DaBurglar]

DaBurglar you have been one of the most anti Bob Dancer posters on this site. You have questioned Bob and his methods long before FP and now you use those same people as cover so that you can again load up on Bob in your last paragraph. For you to ask Bob to be more transparent for the sake of other people and not you is quite laughable. Bob Dancer has made his bones and does not, in my opinion, owe you or anyone else more transparency than he has already provided.

By the way: as much as my eyes appreciate your use of larger font it, in itself, does not make you right.

BOB, if you read this, pay no attention to this individual's  "INTERPRETATION" of what I wrote.....clearly he wants nothing more than to provoke yet more strife (or what he see's as strife) between you and myself,  and as anyone can read from my post, I DO NOT say you "OWE" me personally a damn thing....I am trusting you are wise enough and smart enough to understand my subtle points, even if Ted is not ...... thanks.

[DaBurglar]

[quote=TedLark]You have questioned Bob and his methods long before FP and now you use
those same people as cover so that you can again load up on Bob in your
last paragraph.Just to clear things up, I never said Bob Dancer was evil or a sinner and I certainly never said I blamed his divorce on his career choice.   That is totally unfair in my opinion.  What I question is his claim of making 6 figures a year on video poker winnings alone and his promotion of professional gambling as a career.  I also never questioned his strategy or methodology as long as you have the same opportunities available to you.





[/QUOTE]Phil relax, aside from being 100% wrong (I never questioned Bob's methods before, I just used to make SILLY fun by deliberately misspelling Bob's name, in a sense making light of his celebrity status, and wouldn't you know, Tedlark was the ONLY....ONLY person here to actually berate me, pretending to think I was "serious" but in reality just being Ted.....)    While I do not subscribe to your views on Bob or what he does, nor do I myself play a less-than-max-coin strategy, you are entitled to say and think what you want.I myself have always believed in the strategy to play max coin, and if Bankroll is an issue, then drop down to a denomination where you can play max coin, even if it is 5 or 10 cents......but that fits with my view of video poker as entertainment and something to do while spending time in a place like AC (or vegas)......Bob is all about making a living, so I think any strife between you two is almost pointless because it is APPLEs to Bowling Balls. (i.e.  Entertainment versus Earning a Living/Lifestyle).

[FloridaPhil]

No problem here.  I gave up investing my energy into questions about Bob Dancer or his personal lifestyle.  He's obviously doing fine.  Personally, I think he counts all of his video poker related earnings as winnings and that's fine with me.  I play the way I want and I think that's OK too.  I have more important things to think about.   I'm going to Reno with my wife in a couple of weeks and that's all I'm thinking about right now. 

[BobDancer]

  What I question is his claim of making 6 figures a year on video poker winnings alone and his promotion of professional gambling as a career.  I also never questioned his strategy or methodology as long as you have the same opportunities available to you.





You've questioned a lot more than that --- Phil --- repeatedly. You've argued that nobody can earn $10 a year on video poker winnings. When you get emotional, you say all sorts of things.However, the Tedlark quote you seem so worried about was directed at DB, not you. And I was quoting Rascal when he implied my divorce affected my credibility as a video poker role model.What I treasure most in the current thread is the most accurate thing I've ever seen you post, namely   Let's just say that I don't know what I'm talking about and leave it at that.  Finally, something we can agree on!

[FloridaPhil]

Bob, you're not sucking me into your tantrum again.  I believe you're making a very good living, I just don't believe you do it all from pushing buttons on a video poker game.  That's my opinion and I have a right to state it openly.