Scouting for plays??

[Frank Kneeland]

Frank, what youre saying is akin to saying itll all work out in the end, and for many many many players it just does not. Teams have to experience that destructive side as well, and if you say the owner is made of money then no way would he be into video poker.Youre making it sound too good to be true for these teams, and Im not even sure casinos allow teams to converge on their high progressive royal games. At least it doesnt seem like they would or even should. How could their regular players and other guests get their shots at these things, and wouldnt that weigh heavily on how they run the places? Now I am a little bit disillusioned. You really dont play with your own money, and youre only a line employee now and have been like an office manager for some other guy? I thought you were a video poker pro, no? Im really confused over the definition of what a professional really is now. Is Bob Dancer a pro or maybe hes not because I now dont know if he plays with his own money or not. Same with RS and any others who say theyre pros. Are pros only those like you who get some salary for playing, or are they people who make their living from the machines? Is the team owner a pro? You mean all I have to do is audition for the team leader at a machine and Im on a payroll? I can do it in my spare time.Good questions BS. I know this is cliche, but I off to play a really high progressive. I'll try to answer tonight when I get home, if I get home, and I'm not too tired. If not I'll answer in full tomorrow.~FK

[BillyJoe]

[QUOTE=backsider] You are 100% correct and I wont try to obfuscate that "yes" by telling you that "no" is to even be considered as a viable answer. If you decide to sit at a machine with a huge royal and a crummy pay table, that crummy pay table means one thing, that the game will take your money faster and it is increasingly difficult to make money without hitting that royal flush. All the theory in the world cannot make up anything positive about this play without actually hitting that royal. Even a novice like me understands that. I would point out one thing. You said, "if you sit at a machine with a crummy pay-table". If one is playing a very high progressive, then one isn't playing a machine with a crummy pay-table, since the Royal is included in "the pay-table". Simply because it is an infrequent hand does not mean one can remove it from the equation. Playing in a large team, to me Royals seem quite common. It all depends on your perspective. Anyway, since we mostly play when the RF is 3x or 4x reset amounts, it's as if we are getting 4 times as many Royals as people playing non-progressives. We aren't getting more, we are simply getting 4 times as much money when we hit one. It works out the same though.The two aspects of return are amount and frequency. How Much & How OftenOn random machines you can't control "how often".On progressives you CAN control "how much".~FK[/QUOTE]
Frank, are you becoming a convert to my way of thinking?   I had said that the more hands that you play, the greater the probability of hitting a specific hand, like a progressive RF. You specifically told me in another thread that playing as a team had no bearing on the overall return on a pay table. But above, you say that RFs are common for a large team, which I believe to be correct, since a team can collectively play more hands than an individual in any segment of time (hour, session, day, year, etc).  ALLELUIA (I think)

[shadowman]

what youre saying is akin to saying itll all work out in the end, and for many many many players it just does not.

 
You would think you would have learned by now, but you keep denying the evidence and go back to claiming that mathematics doesn't work.
 
It's simple probability. You take a chance every time you get into a car, ride a train or a plane. How about eating in a restaurant? Walking across a street? In every case there's a small probability you could get killed or injured. So, when you do these activities "what youre saying is akin to saying itll all work out in the end". And, guess what? It usually does. That's what probabilities tell us.
 
Sure, there a small chance you could be one of the unfortunate to gets hit by a bus crossing the street. One can still lose at VP with a 99% chance of success. But, just like normal folks who don't cower in their homes fearing a small probability of problems, VP advantage players have no problem with these small risks.

[shadowman]

Frank, are you becoming a convert to my way of thinking?   I had said that the more hands that you play, the greater the probability of hitting a specific hand, like a progressive RF. You specifically told me in another thread that playing as a team had no bearing on the overall return on a pay table. But above, you say that RFs are common for a large team, which I believe to be correct, since a team can collectively play more hands than an individual in any segment of time (hour, session, day, year, etc).  
ALLELUIA (I think)


 
You're confusing probability with quantity. Frank is telling you that you'll see the same number of RFs per hand played. The return on investment is exactly the same. All a team does is play more hands, and hence, get more total RFs. However, they also invest more coin-in as well. The net result is the same, they just even out the ups and downs faster.
 
One other thing that leads to more RFs playing progressives is the strategy changes to go for them more often. So, you might see a RF every 32K hands instead of every 40K hands. However, you give up a little in small payouts as you play which is why the RF has to be bigger for this strategy to pay off.

[backsider]

[QUOTE=backsider] what youre saying is akin to saying itll all work out in the end, and for many many many players it just does not.

 
You would think you would have learned by now, but you keep denying the evidence and go back to claiming that mathematics doesn't work. [/QUOTE]
 Youre just a grouchy individual, and I really do believe how you present yourself identifies what a sour, angry life you lead. Youre quote above about me is a lie and youd know that if you didnt get all entwined every time you read a post by me that apparently challenges you. For many players, that math youre referring to does not work out, and I know a lot of them who have said this to me and on the forums Ive read. Why should you get all hot and bothered over this? Youve seen the same thing too. But I did not claim the mathematics does not work. While youre pondering this mistake of yours, please explain where we can look at this "evidence". You mean how you or other aps say theyve done? Then go ahead, produce some kind of confirming evidence for these claims. Formulas and theories arent good enough when making claims. I live in a world where hard evidence can save lives and is difficult to unravel, and where theories can and have gotten people killed. This is a computer game, so its a lot easer to support, so please do tell. Thank you Frank in advance for taking the time to help me understand how its done. Im sorry it had to get sidetracked by this guy, but from what Ive seen he does it everywhere when a slippery slope appears.  

[royal flush]

i think what frank means that a team of 3 or 4 players will hit on average 3 or 4x as many royals a one player as 3 or 4 x the number of hands player also a 8/5 job game with a 12,000 payout for a royal is over 101.5% as extra 8000 for royals is about 4% minus 2.5% for 8/5 job equals +1.5% edge on average.

[shadowman]

 
Youre just a grouchy individual, and I really do believe how you present yourself identifies what a sour, angry life you lead.
 
Nothing I said was in the least bit emotional. It was simple facts. Sorry if that upsets you.
 

Youre quote above about me is a lie and youd know that if you didnt get all entwined every time you read a post by me that apparently challenges you. For many players, that math youre referring to does not work out, and I know a lot of them who have said this to me and on the forums Ive read.
 
The math does "work out" for everyone. You just don't understand the math and hence continue to deny it's influence on results.
 
Why should you get all hot and bothered over this? Youve seen the same thing too. But I did not claim the mathematics does not work.
 
Actually, your words above were ... "that math youre referring to does not work out". This is consistent with your continued denial of simple math. One can only wonder how you can deny something you stated just a couple of sentences before it. 
 
While youre pondering this mistake of yours, please explain where we can look at this "evidence". You mean how you or other aps say theyve done? Then go ahead, produce some kind of confirming evidence for these claims. Formulas and theories arent good enough when making claims. I live in a world where hard evidence can save lives and is difficult to unravel, and where theories can and have gotten people killed. This is a computer game, so its a lot easer to support, so please do tell.

 
Sorry, once again you demonstrate your confusion. No theories are involved. It is simple, provable math. Your continued denial of basic high school math is entertaining to some, but rather boring to those who actually paid attention.

[backsider]

Shadowman, a line item response, really? Is this how you react when embarrassed? All youve restated is that you rely on the math working out for players but for the ones that it does not work out for, youre in denial about. You also doubletalked your way out of providing actual evidence for any of your claims Ive read on various forums that you win just as the math says. If its so simple and provable then prove to me your actual experience. See if you can do it without using theory or expectation. Id like some real information please. Or will you continue to be like Arnold and say "Trust Me!"

[Eduardo]

A guy was looking at his neighbor's amazing tomatos. "Wow, how'd you get such nice tomatos?"I'll tell you" his neighbor says. His neighbor gives him some seedlings and says "Plant these 2 feet apart in a row. Water them once a day in the morning. Add some of this fertilizer once a week, some on the soil and some on the leaves. In two months you will have great tomatos.""Wow, that's easy" he says! And off he runs with the seedlings.The man plants them in a row, 2 feet apart, JUST like his neighbor said. The next morning he waters them.The tomatos aren't growing very fast, so he decides to do the fertilizer twice a week instead of once, because he wants to see if that will make the tomoatos look great in 6 weeks instead of two months. He forgets to water a few times but makes up for it by watering twice a day the next day. After a few weeks, he remembers that he's supposed to be putting the fertilizer on the leaves and also the soil. So he puts a bunch on the leaves in higher concentration.5 weeks go by, and the tomatos aren't looking so good. There are spots on the leaves and they over all look really sad."Your advice is terrible" he tells his neighbor. "You gave me those seedlings, I planted them JUST like you said, I watered the soil and the leaves, and look how terrible my tomatos are turning out! Just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone!"  

[shadowman]

Shadowman, a line item response, really?
 
Really.
 
Is this how you react when embarrassed?
 
Now why would I ever be embarrassed? I simply provided you with accurate information. Only one of us could possibly be embarrassed and they might even start projecting that situation.
 
All youve restated is that you rely on the math working out for players but for the ones that it does not work out for, youre in denial about. You also doubletalked your way out of providing actual evidence for any of your claims Ive read on various forums that you win just as the math says. If its so simple and provable then prove to me your actual experience. See if you can do it without using theory or expectation. Id like some real information please. Or will you continue to be like Arnold and say "Trust Me!"
 
You still seem to be confused. The "math" does not guarantee anyone will walk away a winner. You've been told that many times. What the math does is allow us to examine the chances (likelihood if you prefer) for future success and to determine the best way of getting the most out of our money. Yes, given the right opportunity (known as a positive edge), the chances for winning can be extremely good. But, as I tried to get across in my last comment, life itself is a risk with no guarantees, gambling is just an extension of that.