Leaving Sunday 07-05

[Tedlark]

  People winning at video poker in Atlantic City, cats getting along with dogs, it's madness...   Congrats jeter.

[FAA]

Won $400 yesterday at Harrahs AC. PM losing
session of $200 on my favorite QQ machine, got 2 dealt QQs but could not
put any good runs together. Went to dinner came back to same VP area,
all 4 QQ machines were empty, very rare. Went to my other
favorite machine Super Triple Play, put in $100, was down to last $20
when 4oaks stated to hit, a slow consistent climb. Actually
switched from 5 hand nickles to dimes. First hand of dimes caught 4oak
deuces with kicker and 4 deuces DDB. Punched out ticket for $600-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Congratulations. As a low roller, the afternoon session would have busted me PDQ. Or the $80 early loss after dinner. I will kick the boardwalk tires again tmrw. This time cooling my jets and giving the Cheap Strategy a run.

[DaBurglar]

It is NOT simply a case where a casino, when it wants to reap more $$ from video poker, all it has to do is keep lowering the paytable.....there is a point, and we are at it, where a casino cannot lower the paytable any lower because NO ONE will play it, and therefore the total revenue will drop to ZERO.     There are now MANY paytables at 6/5 JOB in many casino markets, and the results are obvious......total $$$ is way down, not because the machines are not holding/retaining enough, but simple NO ONE IS PLAYING them sufficiently!!    Seriously, I KNOW you all get this point!   ALl we do on this site is discuss paytables and return%!!!What has happened in AC is they are keeping paytables in the normal/decent range (hell, even "improving them" in some cases to 99%)  but because they are allowed to set the games to return much lower, players like me who initially EXPECT the games to behave like normal machines receive results that at first appear like just "bad luck"...but then, after NUMEROUS repeated performances yielding the same results, we start to suspect something else is afoot.NOT all machines are the same or set this way.....in the "MIX" of Vp machines, as is the case with SLOTS, the actual return% of any SPECIFIC machine is individually unique:  some machines are set really low, while other VP machines are simply left alone to yield what the paytable says it should......one of the former gaming officials I met last month confirmed this and explained it to me.....casinos are allowed to set the machines ANYWHERE in the range from 83 to 99 percent.    This makes total sense to me.......NOTE:  setting a VP machine to yield lower than the paytable has NOTHING to do with altering the "Chip" or RNG......these things are NOT accessible by casino staff or personel (as we all know, the chip is "Sealed" and any tampering is evident if inspected, although in NJ, no inspecting is going on right now!)    There are menu settings and user options that allow casinos to "customize" many aspects of a Video Poker games functionality, including how many "non paying or dud" hands it averages over the course of time.

[onemoretry]

NOTE:  setting a VP machine to yield lower than the paytable has NOTHING to do with altering the "Chip" or RNG......these things are NOT accessible by casino staff or personel (as we all know, the chip is "Sealed" and any tampering is evident if inspected, although in NJ, no inspecting is going on right now!)    There are menu settings and user options that allow casinos to "customize" many aspects of a Video Poker games functionality, including how many "non paying or dud" hands it averages over the course of time.

Huh? The RNG deals the hands and the replacements for any cards discarded. If, in fact, a casino was altering the payouts, howinthehell can they do it without touching the RNG? The available customizing options have nothing to do with altering the payouts of a given pay table.

This "note" is absolute total BS!

[DaBurglar]

you have a simplistic view of how games and software actually work.....as both of us have noted the RNG is a simple straightforward mechanisms that generates millions of results over and over......that is it.The actual SOFTWARE Program that runs the game(s) and generates the screen looks and action that the viewer sees, is the part that TAKES the result of the RNG and does the work to generate the actual tangible (i.e. Viewable) game result the player actually sees and reacts to.....there are potentially countless ways a end user (in this case the CASINO) can modify and tweek the actual games by using the many options and menus and user defined tables and utilities that come with any software game program.    Onemoretry, I am simply putting forth what I myself understand regarding how "games" in general tend to work, along with info and scenarios other people have related to me over the years.....what I am describing is not all "preposterous" (or BS) as you call it) for anyone who has a clue about how game software tends to work and is constructed....you simply have a real SIMPLISTIC, unsophisticated understanding as to how games, and video poker specifically, is constructed and works.the game(s) you play in the casinos you visit, onemoretry, do not begin and end with the RNG....there is a whole lot of other programming and features that go into to yielding the final end result you see and react to on your game screen.   It is my feeling (not a FACT, but a strong feeling/belief) that given the absurd results statistically I have seen in AC over the last 5-6 years, there is something that the casinos in AC can (and often DO) utilize in the user menus and options within SOME of their video poke rmachines that allows them to take the results generated by the RNG and further filter/massage/tweek them so that a Video Poker game that advertises 97% on its paytable actually yields in the range of 83-90% like the SLOT machines in AC are allowed to do.If you simply cannot, or dont want to believe this, or simply cannot UNDERSTAND this scenario that I am describing, that's fine, but you will not simply be allowed to yell "BS" without some clear solid counter argument.What it will take on my part for me to once and for all DROP this theory is for someone from either IGT who manufactures these games to come out and clearly describe just how exactly their machines work, the options and menus that end users and customers (i.e. casinos) have at their disposal and what they do to the inviolate RNG results, and in the process disprove my scenario by stating "the casinos cannot physically DO what you are describing Mr Burglar because the options and menus do not work that way!"........OR it will take several casino employees from AC casinos to come forward and say clearly and publicly that they do not manage their Video Poker inventory in the  manner I propose.....they WOULD NEED T0 unequivocally state that the video poker games they offer  are NO different than VEGAS Video Poker games.    And just so that everyone knows (in case they missed previous statements on my part) I have in fact ASKED this very question on numerous previous visits to AC, and never has a AC gaming official, or casino employee/manager flat out stated that this is the case!!!!

[Tedlark]

  DaBurglar please let us know when we can expect some clear solid counter arguement from you. K?   Remember; Gettysburg Address = 272 words...

[onemoretry]

It is my feeling (not a FACT, but a strong feeling/belief)..........If you always prefaced your comments regarding machine tampering with this statement they would be a little more palatable.

[FAA]

This is kind of our Wizard of Oz moment where they peel back the curtain. Our over reliance on the RNG crutch rationale has been exposed. It's actually a relatively crude mechanism. The software is doing all the heavy lifting. Of our wallets, if our collective results can be accepted as evidence. It's certainly interesting to consider.  

[onemoretry]

This is kind of our Wizard of Oz moment where they peel back the curtain. Our over reliance on the RNG crutch rationale has been exposed.

What, exactly, do you mean by that?

[DaBurglar]

[QUOTE=FAA] This is kind of our Wizard of Oz moment where they peel back the curtain. Our over reliance on the RNG crutch rationale has been exposed.

What, exactly, do you mean by that?[/QUOTE]See, I am sorry onemoretry, I really have no interest in popping your own personal bubble or whatever it is you have invested in this whole issue that makes you completely incapable of even CONSIDERING for just a few moments that, in certain Video Poker Markets (AC in this case), there just MIGHT Be some machines in use by SOME ac casinos which, contrary to the vast majority of machines in places like VEGAS, might actually WORK or be set up to work DIFFERENT.....and that this difference is NOT a case of nefarious, illegal  or evil casino owners.    It is worked within the rules of AC's "unique" gaming regs....What he "means" , and what you do not seem to grasp, is that there is a LOT that goes into making a Slot machine, or a VP machine function besides the relatively simple and basic component we know as the RNG "Chip"......behind and within games such as Double Double Bonus is Software programs that simply incorporate the result generated by the RNg chip and produce the actual gaming EXPERIENCE you and I observe on the screen.Within the actual programming of the Software for the VP games we play lies the potential for a casino to customize, or modify or otherwise change or manipulate the game to POSSIBLY produce results that go beyond or outside of the simple straightforward assumptions inherent in what we all think of as NEVADA Video Poker.in AC's case, because Video Poker is simply "Slots in another form", and therefore can legally return as low as 83%, (but note, it does not mean the casinos HAVE to do this, and by all accounts, many VP machines in AC, both in the past and currently, DO not go that low, but instead function like we assumed they did, like Nevada games.)   But according to both my results and the feedback I get from others, clearly, MANY VP machines in AC are set to return well below the typical expected ranges of 95-99% that most current paytables predict.   The only way to do this is via the SOFTWARE options and utilities that may exist in the user (i.e. casino) menus that accompany the games.   The actual RNG chips themselves as we all know and agree, are inviolate (plus, what good would screwing with the RNG do for actually altering the ACTUAL end result (or play result) the player observes on the screen when he/she/it  hits deal/draw?!?!?!.