Fallen Marines

[DaBurglar]

DaBurglar under the First Ammendment you have the right to freedom of speech and you exercised that right with the sentence you wrote in bold font. Thank our forefathers for giving you the First Ammendment and then thank every person who has ever worn a uniform to defend our First Ammendment rights since 1787.

After reading what you wrote; I feel sad for you, I really do. Have you ever given thought to putting "expat" in front of your name? And no, that is not a reference to your belovedNew England Patriots either.   You do nothing to address the valid points I make and bring up, you offer NO coherent argument for anything, just hollow, pointless superficial criticism dressed up with some phony moralizing.   Your ignorance and lack of deep understanding of all the issues (Foreign Policy, Military History and Practice, US Constitutional Law and History, and Freedom of Speech, thought, belief, etc.)First off, criticizing one's country and the policies and practices of its government is not only a "right" I have, but often times it is an obligation or duty.   Basically every time a person (like You Ted) VOTES in an election they are not only expressing support for a certain party or individual but criticizing and expressing disdain for the opposition, and IF you happen to be voting against an incumbent, well then you are in effect criticizing the "WAY things are or have been going as of late."    Do not paint me as "anti American", that is total cowardice and superficiality on your part, especially since you offer NOTHING as a counter argument (as usual).....Secondly, I AM COMPLETELY sick and tired of ignorant, simplistic and emotional people co-opting the military and veterans of all generations  (i.e. MEN IN UNIFORM) as the source of "our freedom", crediting them and thanking them as the reason we are all still free in this country today.....this is such a ridiculous exaggeration.....I am not free to type on the internet what I am typing NOW because thousands of americans died in the hot dusty Iraqi Desert or the lonely desolate hills of Afghanistan  over the last 10 plus years.....I was not free to choose which school I attended and what I became after graduating because My dad served in Vietnam......Many wars (or military clashes) in the history of the US had NOTHING to do with "defending, protecting or guaranteeing" freedom or rights of Americans here in the USA itself ......However, several wars in US history DID involve directly defending (or establishing in the first place) American Freedom:  The Revolutionary War, the war of 1812, the American CIvil War (for african Americans mostly), and, arguably, the Second World War  WERE indeed wars that either DID or could have had direct impact on the freedom and everyday rights of Americans IF (and it is a big if in some cases)  the actual results of the war had gone in a different direction than they actually did (i.e. IF the USA had "lost" the war in question).......but if you are going to credit SOLDIERS themselves for all USA freedom and rights, you need be careful with that extreme and emotional argument:   WHAT IF, perchance for example, the American Soldiers had fought and LOST World War Two and the Germans (or Japanese) had conquered the world including the USA.....would you NOW be blaming the same soldiers for having LOST (or "FAILED to Protect/Defend) all your freedom and rights?    Be careful how you fling certain sentiments around......American freedom and rights exists because the US People have  chosen to create, draft and maintain a Constitution and supporting government (as defined in that same constitution) through the centuries that has stood the test of time, and because we are fortunate to have (among many important things) the right combination of Geography and natural resources within our national borders to help facilitate the type of ECONOMY that gets enough people involved in everyday business and success to want to KEEP and maintain this Constitution and form of government (it is in the peoples' own best interest to do so....)    Having a Military to defend national interests is but a single, important (but not OVERLY important) aspect of the type of government we have......Be AWARE, our founding fathers who drafted the Constitution and envisioned how it would all work, DID NOT advocate having a HUGE, Expensive "Super cool" Military or professional defense force...they were VERY wary of such things, and rightly so.......it is only the last 55-60 years in the USA's 250 year history that we have kept and maintained such a huge, expensive and dominant military......even at the end of World War Two, when we had the MIGHTIEST, most powerful military the world had ever seen, we immediately began disbanding and dismantling the HUGE ARMY, NAVY and AIRFORCE we had amassed, once Japan and Germany Surrendered;  between 1945 and 1950 we sought to return to a peacetime economy without a huge military (except for a modern robust airforce to deal with the Atomic Bomb which, many thought at the time would make huge conventional armies pointless!)   But the Korean war changed all that, and from that moment on, the "military Industrial COMPLEX" that Eisenhower warned about essentially became a permanent fixture in the American Political, Social and (especially) ECONOMIC way of life.  With it came a awareness, even glorification, of all things military, and Veterans became a powerful faction and focal point in political and social agendas.    It is thus not surprising to hear people "thanking" soldiers for the freedoms they enjoy at home.....it is all part of the militarization of American Culture.You will not find a more devoted person to the causes and plight of Veterans than myself.....Whether I agree with a war or why its being fought, when the heat is on and the battle raging, here and abroad, I will always help and support the PEOPLE fighting and dying in the war......ALWAYS.    But I will not apologize for being educated, thoughtful, non-hypocritical or for exercising the rights guaranteed by the constitution, which BEHOOVE ALL OF US to think about and even QUESTION the who, what, where when and WHY of any US military action or invlovement>And one last thing, the rights described and proscribed in the US Constitution were first alluded to and introduced in the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.....Thomas Jefferson, and the other "Founding Fathers" who signed both the Declaration of Independence and later were ALSO party to the CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION and helped construct that document and the resulting government, identified the true source of mankind's "inalienable rights"  to LIFE, LIBERTY and PURSUIT of HAPPINESS (i.e.  the things the CONSTITUION seeks to provide and ensure)......that SOURCE is GOD himself....."endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights...."      American freedom idNot Ben Franklin, or George Washington.....Not Jefferson, or Lincoln.....Not George Patton, or MAcArthur, not Audie Murphy or Sergeant York, not Schwarzkopf or PEtraeus.......

[Tedlark]

Thanks for the history lesson DaBurglar, I think I got that same speech from Ms. Pardo in 4th grade.

You mention Korea but you fail to mention the Soviet buildup in Cuba.

You also speak of the size of the US military machine but you don't speak of how much good this has brought to the rest of the world. Just how many things were developed as a result of investment by the US military?

Please don't underestimate my knowledge of those things in which you spoke of in your first paragraph. Just because I choose not to bring long winded posts about those topics into the forum in much the same manner as you do; does not mean I am ignorant of the facts.   

[DaBurglar]

Thanks for the history lesson DaBurglar, I think I got that same speech from Ms. Pardo in 4th grade.

You mention Korea but you fail to mention the Soviet buildup in Cuba.

You also speak of the size of the US military machine but you don't speak of how much good this has brought to the rest of the world. Just how many things were developed as a result of investment by the US military?

Please don't underestimate my knowledge of those things in which you spoke of in your first paragraph. Just because I choose not to bring long winded posts about those topics into the forum in much the same manner as you do; does not mean I am ignorant of the facts.   I'll stand by my "underestimation" until you have Ms Pardo send me a letter of commendation along with a copy of your college degree (four year accredited, does not need be IVY league) in either Poilitcal Science, History or some combination.What  "GOOD" has the SIZE of the US military brought the rest of the world that you allude to?    When you speak of "things that were developed as a result of investment by the US military" what are you talking about?      the most obvious problem with all this, even before you clarify what you mean (if you can), is the simple fact that WE (us taxpayers) are funding this stuff, so whatever "GLOBAL good" you seem to put so much stock into is on the backs of US Citizen's wallets & bank accounts.....Why is all this military spending, on weapons and instruments of death and destruction that we HOPE never actually get USED EVER, preferable to spending even a portion of that same money on the CRITICAL  Infrastructure needs of the USA?   Or on providing ALL citizens with basic healthcare?  Or giving every teen a college education with little or no student debt at the end?    It is insane.......but it happens because certain companies in certain industries have certain lobbyists who have certain congressmen and senators in line to join a bunch of company boards and consulting positions for 7 figure paydays in exchange for keeping "the big wheel spinning", and the military industrial complex churning.The worst thing is we all know this is the case and these allegations of waste, abuse and influential defense lobbyists are true.....anyone remember the $400 hammers the pentagon purchased to service its brand new M-1 Abrams tanks back in the mid 1980s when they first came out during Reagan's Spending Spree?    I handled my own share of defense contracts when I worked with the Arospace companies out in Southern California in the mid 1990s thru 2005, and I can attest to the abject, obscene waste and inefficiency that is just accepted as "part of the game".....Nope, the Military is NOT at all the guarantor of all our precious American Freedoms and way of life......I'd be more willing to give the CIA credit for that in this day and age, but the truth is our freedoms and liberties are under attack not from outside forces as much as inside forces......indeed the very same government and society at home is responsible for infringing on our domestic rights and freedoms to a far greater extent than any terrorist sitting in the middle of the Iraqi or Syrian Desert.......If you are a pro gun person than you know that this "right" is potentially at risk, if you are pro choice than you know this is at risk.....if you are a firm believer in the Bill of Rights (the constitution's amendments) then you know that the "Patriot Act" was a HUGE blow to them in 2002.     You no doubt know how the "drug war" has likewise eroded much personal freedom in this country, etc.Whether you agree or disagree (or maybe a little of both) with me and my points, you cannot deny it makes you think a little......

[notes1]

[QUOTE=notes1]


  At some point you have to just do your best to cordon off the area and let the monsters devour themselves......
they will devour themselves??? really! that has worked so well with the world trade center bombing and 9-11.  some of these extremists hate you, hate me, they just plain hate america and the west. you think if we just leave them alone, they will just leave the rest of the world alone. the current policy of non involvement is working so well now. i ask again, did more die/suffer as a result of usa involvement or non involvement. ask the syrians, christians, etc. it seems to be trendy these days to find fault with all the usa has done. the bombing of dresden or the use of the nuke in japan would never be accepted today. but, were more lives saved than would have been lost, without using these extreme measures.   the usa tried to stay out of europe's problems in the early 40's, result....6million jews killed.    

[Minn. Fatz]

[QUOTE=Minn. Fatz]
[QUOTE=Minn. Fatz]June 2015: 9 shot and killed in a church in Charleston, SCFebruary 2015: 7 shot and killed in a home in Tyrone, MODecember, 2014: 6 shot and killed in Montgomery Co., PAOctober 2014: 4 shot and killed in a school in Marysville, WASeptember 2014: 7 shot and killed in a home in Bell, FLJuly 2014: 6 shot and killed in a home in Spring, TXMay 2014: 6 shot and killed in Isla Vista, CASeptember 2013: 12 shot and killed in Washington, DCJuly 2013: 6 shot and killed in Hialeah, FLJume 201: 5 shot and killed in a school in Santa Monica, CAApril 2013: 5 shot and killed, including an unborn child, in Manchester, ILJanuary 2013: 5 shot and killed in South Valley, NM; 3 shot and killed in a school in Hazard, KYDecember 2012: 27 teachers and children shot and killed in a school in Newtown, CTAugust 2012: 6 shot and killed in a church in Oak Creek, WIJuly 2012: 12 shot and killed in Aurora, COApril, 2012: 7 shot and killed in a school in Oakland, CAFebruary 2012: 3 shot and killed in a school in Chardon, OHDecember 2011: 6 shot and killed in a home in Grapevine, TXSeptember 2011: 4 shot and killed in Carson City, NVOctober 2011: 8 shot and killed in Seal Beach, CAJanuary 2011: 6 shot and killed in Tucson, AZJanuary 2010: 8 shot and killed in a home in Appomattox, VANovember 2009: 13 shot and killed in Ft. Hood, TXSeptember 2009: 6 shot and killed in Naples, FLAugust 2009: 3 shot and killed in Bridgeville, PAJuly 2009: 6 shot and killed in TN and ALApril 2009: 13 shot and killed in Binghamton, NYMarch 2009: 18 people and 4 dogs shot and killed in two incidents in AL and NCJanuary 2009: 6 shot and killed in Los Angeles, CA

July 2015: 5 soldiers shot and killed in Chattanooga; 3 shot and killed, 1 seriously wounded in Suwanee, GA[/QUOTE]July 2015: At least 2 shot and killed, 7 injured in Lafayette, LA[/QUOTE]August 2015: 6 kids and 2 adults shot and killed in a home in Houston, TX

[DaBurglar]

Hey Minn Fatz,  Since 9/11, 74 Americans have been killed in acts of Terrorism IN the United States (the 50 states)......in that same 15 year period, since 9/11, over 150,000 Americans have been killed via GUN Violence in the same 50 states (this does NOT include Americans killed overseas via either method, in which case both numbers would obviously be higher...)74  versus 150,000+ .....which seems to be the greater problem or threat to society??   duhAnd yet, since 9/11 look at what the USA has done to combat Terrorism:    Keep in mind that this was done By A REPUBLICAN ("we need smaller and LESS government")  Executive Office (i.e. GW Bush).....We CREATED a brand new Cabinet Position and Department (HOMELAND security) which itself has spent  since 2002 nearly 800 BILLION (with a B) replicating duties and tasks which should already have been performed by existing agencies and departments (Coast Guard, Border Patrol, Immigration, Customs, FBI, ATF, DEA and many others.....);     We also allowed our government (Both President Bush and a Bi-partisan Congress, so sorry Democrats, you share the blame here) to infringe upon, limit and eradicate all kinds of civil liberties, privacy and basic rights originally proscribed in the US Constitution (patriot Act, monitoring of all manner of electronic communications, to generalize and name a few);    We fought two incredibly costly Wars, along with numerous smaller military actions all in the name of "defeating Terror";And what have we done about Gun Violence (either to eliminate ir, or simply reduce it jussst a little or prevent it, or ANYTHING positive and proactive)???     0  Zero   ZIP  NADA  ZILCH  Not a friggin thing......In fact if ANYTHING has happened during the last 15 years when 150,000 plus americans were being killed by gun violence, we have made it EASIER for people to acquire guns and HARDER for state and local communities to enact their own laws and regulations concerning gun ownership (afterall, what is right and works for Casper, Wyoming may not be right for Chicago or San Francicsco)....:  the 2008 Supreme Court decision (5-4) which for the first time since the Constitution's formation SPECIFIED and Affirmed that the 2nd Amendment actually applied to a INDIVIDUAL's right to bear arms, instead of leaving this specific issue to the State & local courts!People have adopted a fatal, cynical view of Gun Violence, saying "well that's just the way it is in the USA" and aside from some initial shock and sadness, when a MASS shooting like the Cinema in Louisiana happens, people shrug it off and go about their mundane business.       Worst of all is Gun Advocates who insist that if "everyone is armed or wears a gun this would make things better" because, in the cases of the Louisiana Theater, and the Afro-American Church in Georgia, people could "Shoot the bad guy(s)!!!!"            What moronic idiocy, to actually think that having "EVERYONE" armed with a gun in a dark crowed theater and then having them all SHOOT IT OUT is going to make things better.

[onemoretry]

Often, I disagree with what DB has to say.

Not this time.

[Carcounter]

DB, we know you're an educated person and you know history, but you are trying too hard to prove a point. It seems this is important to you, so who am I to argue.

[Minn. Fatz]

Since 9/11, 74 Americans have been killed in acts of Terrorism IN the United States (the 50 states)......in that same 15 year period, since 9/11, over 150,000 Americans have been killed via GUN Violence in the same 50 states

My final thought on this for now: there were how many, two, three Americans who contracted the Ebola virus during the last epidemic in Africa. But since then every one of us who has walked into a health care facility has been asked if we have traveled to East Africa recently; new machines have been deployed to take the temperatures of deplaning passengers remotely; at least one individual with no sign of the virus was involuntarily quarantined in a tent on an airport runway.What have we done differently in the face of these gun killings that continue month after month, year after year? Why or why not?Peace out.

[notes1]

this thread started by a concerned parent who worried about his child being a sitting duck, working unarmed in a military recruiting location, after the TN shooting. you hijacked the thread and turned it into your anti gun platform. the ebola event was intially mis-handled by the cdc/texas hospital, the media did it's normal job of blowing things out of proportion and people are afraid of the unknown.   gun violence is a major problem, there is no denying it. gambling abuse, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, child abuse, credit abuse, obesity, texting/speeding/phone use while driving, etc, the list is endless of things that can result in terrible hardship, even death for innocent victims. but, the answer for every problem cannot be to prevent access to those who do not abuse that which others abuse.