The ethical line between advantage play & cheating

[OTABILL]

This article includes the recent VP case discussed elsewhere in the forum.

Why Phil Ivey got a raw deal

[DaBurglar]

Thank you OTABILL for the link!    That is an awesome article, and should provide all of us with a healthy dose of perspective regarding our entire behavior and practices in the casinos we choose to frequent.      Seriously, this article should be "required reading" for all of us on this forum, as well as any serious casino patron and gambler.   While the article contains some cynicism and sidesteps any serious discussion of the concept of "entertainment" and the value of what the casinos provide, it is a healthy cynicism and one which keeps the discussion on the reality of gambling (that it truly is a losing proposition for when ONLY looked at from the game itself.)Here is my favorite quote:     "It's important to make this distinction because it helps set the implied rules of this interaction -- casinos are not in the businesses of fair play.
Gambling has been called -- fairly -- a tax on the dumb. Casinos create
games that are unfair and work hard to make sure that those games are
as unfair as they can be while still feeling fair. In short, they prey
on our human biases."Gotta love that quote, "A TAX on the Dumb."      lol Let's be honest here for the purposes of this thread (honest with both ourselves and each other).......How many of us feel (or have felt) "DUMB" sometimes after a particular bad Video Poker or gambling session?    How many of you have muttered to yourself "You stupid idiot, why didnt you quit when you were up $50 instead of pressing it and winding up down $150????     lol         The Tax man cometh.......

[Eduardo]

How many of us feel (or have felt) "DUMB" sometimes after a particular bad Video Poker or gambling session?

I don't like those days, but I don't feel dumb over it.

I'd probably feel pretty dumb though if I had your level of suspicion about the game and still played as much as you do. I don't understand that at all. Get a new hobby or admit that you feel like you have an honest chance.

I play for fun. I know that gambling is a hobby where the casino is in it to win and the house has the edge almost all of the time. Those casinos sure are pretty.

I also believe that if you are smart and patient enough, you can have just that little bit of an edge in video poker in the right situation, and that the games are fair enough for that to be possible (casinos may take that advantage away through honest means when it's not working out for them, and not allow you to play further).

But I'm also not an advantage-only player, though I do look for the best pay tables I can find to maximize my experience. And learning the strategies is part of the fun for me.

So no, I don't feel dumb on those days. Sometimes I take a bigger risk than usual and it doesn't work out, but that's part of the thrill.

As for the ethical edge between advantage play and cheating, I don't play nearly enough money to have that be an issue for me.

[DaBurglar]

I don't like those days, but I don't feel dumb over it.

I'd probably feel pretty dumb though if I had your level of suspicion about the game and still played as much as you do. I don't understand that at all. Get a new hobby or admit that you feel like you have an honest chance.

I play for fun. I know that gambling is a hobby where the casino is in it to win and the house has the edge almost all of the time. Those casinos sure are pretty.

I also believe that if you are smart and patient enough, you can have just that little bit of an edge in video poker in the right situation, and that the games are fair enough for that to be possible (casinos may take that advantage away through honest means when it's not working out for them, and not allow you to play further).

But I'm also not an advantage-only player, though I do look for the best pay tables I can find to maximize my experience. And learning the strategies is part of the fun for me.

So no, I don't feel dumb on those days. Sometimes I take a bigger risk than usual and it doesn't work out, but that's part of the thrill.

As for the ethical edge between advantage play and cheating, I don't play nearly enough money to have that be an issue for me. Well you obviously put a lot of thought into this post Eduardo.....it's interesting in that you manage to call me "dumb" in a very subtle yet clear way, but I dont actually feel miffed or insulted, even a little.....   Well done!    I'm totally serious, good post......but, respectfully and without rancor, I must post in my defense that (1)  my feelings and belief about Video Poker in AC have been made manifest in my many posts but still people have the incorrect conclusion about what I am actually saying;  (2)  my use of the words and terms "dumb" and "stupid" in this post are not to be taken too seriously or literally!         After all, I am first and foremost merely echoing the words and point made by the article at the core of this thread......and as you clearly and correctly point out eduardo, gambling is about fun and entertainment, and in its healthiest form is not to be taken too seriously.   Someone like myself muttering "That was dumb of me..." when I lose at VP is just an emotional reaction, obviously not to be taken literally, and likewise, if I call someone else "dumb" for playing a less than ideal paytable (as you intimated) I am not to be taken literally or seriously because it is not a matter or test or issue of intelligence, this is about fun/entertainment and (most likely) a lack of other more readily available options/pay tables that are better.I do not have a problem with the game(s) of Video Poker as a whole nor the concept..... I have just encountered over the years some extreme aberrations in Atlantic City casinos with respect the results on VP games like 8/5 BP and several other 99%-plus games, to the extent that I have called into question (and actively sought answers) regarding WHY this is happening (besides simply just accepting "randomness".)    I continued to play (albeit at a much reduced and more circumspect and selective manner) because like you Eduardo, deep down I still retain a belief that most VP games are exactly what they are supposed to be, but I always retain the possibility that things are not what they seem or what we have been led to believe.

[Eduardo]

Thanks daburglar for clearing that up. I didn't intend to say you are dumb. only that if I were to do that I would feel dumb. Because I have a higher standard for myself than I do for you.

[Eduardo]

That was a joke.

[BillyJoe]

The casino, like any other business, seeks to maximize it's profits. It installs features and rules to ensure that any player advantage, beyond pure chance, is minimized. Changing pay tables in VP, reducing Blackjack payouts to 6/5 and re-shuffling single decks for every game are good examples. So, when asked about success in a casino, here is MY quote, which anyone is welcome to use and repeat...

"Winning happens, but losing happens more often"

[Tedlark]

billyjoe did you forget an "n" or was "wining" Freudian?

[DaBurglar]

That was a joke.

Indeed....Getting back to the topic du jour, one point that we often forget or overlook is this:  Casinos are private property (essentially, like someone's house or residence.)  Casinos look to the Gaming commissions in their respective states for guidance and direction regarding THE GAMES in their "house", but they retain the right to essentially boot out anyone they feel is a danger (either a danger physically to themselves or others...or a danger FINANCIALLY to the casino because they have somehow beaten a game or are simply outrageously lucky and normal math somehow has gone out the window...)  Taken at its most "literal" meaning, the term "RIGGED" basically applies to every game in every casino, in the sense that they ALL favor the house.....but when seasoned gamblers like us hear or consider the term RIGGED, we generally take it to mean a game in which the NORMAL or expected (or advertised) house edge is grossly exagerated in favor of the house way beyond the norm....But typical casinos in Vegas, AC and elsewhere are not selling "money" or chips or stress or heartburn or misery....they are selling entertainment!   They are not in business to make their patrons wealthy (or healthy for that matter...)  The idea or concept of advantage play to the casinos is anathema to what they are trying to do which is, in all honesty, make themselves filthy rich while (hopefully ) in the process bamboozle the rest of us into thinking we are having a good time while making them rich.   If one of us, or some of us, learns how to consistently turn the tables (no pun) and make this whole scheme somehow work to our advantage, even if it is a slight advantage like what Bob Dancer manages to pull off, then we sabotage what they are trying to do.Hence, they might invoke above-mentioned "rights" as private property proprietors.....(say that ten times fast, PRIVATE PROPERTY PROPRIETORS)

[BillyJoe]

   billyjoe did you forget an "n" or was "wining" Freudian?
That's probably why nobody quotes me..