7000 New VP Machines for Caesars

[edog743]

Boy Otabill this is nothing to get pissy about. Take a pill or something.

[Tedlark]

Unless any of you received a BS degree from Bob Dancer's School of Video Poker, I'd appreciate it if you would limit educational discussions to the Anything and Everything topic. Thanks and Happy New Year.


+1

[royal flush]

that's why I wont play there as total expected value is less then 100%

[OTABILL]

Boy Otabill this is nothing to get pissy about. Take a pill or something.

Huh? It was just a suggestion, nothing more nothing less.
Have a happy and healthy new year.

[DaBurglar]

that's why I wont play there as total expected value is less then 100%
   ???     Are you talking about Caesars in general, or some specific casino?     Pretty much everywhere you go these days is an expected value less than 100%, unless of course you are talking about a handful of machines in certain NEVADA casinos that MIGHT have a paytable on a VP game above 100%, or a progressive machine temporarily exceeds 100% due to the jackpot not being hit for a period of time. Whats becoming the norm, not just at Caesars but at many casinos, is VP machines with paytables that imply  returns of 99% or greater are no longer able to earn you any comps worth considering!    I was told by two players on my last trip to AC that the Golden Nugget-AC, which has a slew of 9/6 JOB $1 denom (and up) machines, will not earn player points, or comp dollars, for these games starting January 1 (2 hours from now!)    Most casinos already had VP at a disadvantage compared to slots and its only getting worse.....

[BillyJoe]

[QUOTE=royal flush]that's why I wont play there as total expected value is less then 100%
 
 
 
???     Are you talking about Caesars in general, or some specific casino?     Pretty much everywhere you go these days is an expected value less than 100%, unless of course you are talking about a handful of machines in certain NEVADA casinos that MIGHT have a paytable on a VP game above 100%, or a progressive machine temporarily exceeds 100% due to the jackpot not being hit for a period of time.
 
Whats becoming the norm, not just at Caesars but at many casinos, is VP machines with paytables that imply  returns of 99% or greater are no longer able to earn you any comps worth considering!    I was told by two players on my last trip to AC that the Golden Nugget-AC, which has a slew of 9/6 JOB $1 denom (and up) machines, will not earn player points, or comp dollars, for these games starting January 1 (2 hours from now!)    Most casinos already had VP at a disadvantage compared to slots and its only getting worse.....[/QUOTE]
Since I am a recreational VP player from a 'non-casino' state, I would rather use a Money Management approach and play on a "poorer" paytable within a casino group where I can earn comps that I value. I enjoy playing higher volitility games anyway, so for me, I am either fortunate enough to hit some good hands or not. Sure I would like the extra credit on a full house or flush, but not at the expense of earning no comps for my entire gamng trip.  

[Tedlark]

  After reading the last few posts I have a couple questions:

 
1) Would a video poker machine's expected value include such things as comps and all
    of the little extras that a player such as billyjoe would get? Or is a video poker
    machine's expected value only the paytable?
 
2) When another forum poster talks about VP machines with paytables that imply returns,
    what does this mean?
 
 

[chattycattty]

[QUOTE=Tedlark]   After reading the last few posts I have a couple questions:

 
1) Would a video poker machine's expected value include such things as comps and all
    of the little extras that a player such as billyjoe would get? Or is a video poker
    machine's expected value only the paytable?
 
2) When another forum poster talks about VP machines with paytables that imply returns,
    what does this mean? It means that there is value in what you get back from the casino in exchange for your loyalty and your play. For instance we have played exclusively with CET for the last 3 years and have reached 7 stars each year.

In 2013 we received 68 free nights lodging for ourselves and approximately 20 free nights lodging for our friends who took trips with us. We received 13 free round trip air tickets each plus 4 additional for others we brought with us. We have not paid for food in the last 3 years while at the casino. We have eaten at their steakhouses or the crab leg buffets or room service or whatever else we were in the mood for free of charge.

Additionally we get free movies and internet service. We received free concert tickets to the point where we have seen just about everybody that we have ever wanted to see. We get free limo transportation to and from airport. Also if you add to that the free skiing in Tahoe in the winter and the free yacht cruise in the summer and the free horse and buggy rides we get in New Orleans. We also get a free $500 celebration dinner and thousands of dollars of other odds and ends every year.   In addition with CET we use our reward credits to exchange for extra free play. I am sure I have forgotten a few other free things.

So it does make a difference in your expected value to get the extras. I am still able to find machines at the CET properties that I play at that have favorable returns that you can still play at $10 per tier point. There is no way that I would play a VP machine at $25 or $50 per tier credit.

Last year we played at our home property at Bossier City, La., Atlantic City, Windsor Ontario, Las Vegas, Laughlin, New Orleans, Reno, Lake Tahoe, and Tunica and on every occasion I was able to find VP that was 98% expected EV or better. Even at the 25 cent triple play level which is mainly what I play.

[DaBurglar]

 
2) When another forum poster talks about VP machines with paytables that imply returns,
    what does this mean?
  Implied return percentage/odds simply means just what it says, when you look at a Video Poker game's PAYTABLE, you can estimate what the return percentage should be "OVER THE LONG HAUL"......a 9/6 Jacks or better game, over a long period of time, should return about 99 to 99-1/2% of all money put into it, assuming max coin is bet and the player plays mathematically correct the whole time.      Thus, the paytable IMPLYS that the game will return X percentage.....but if the game is set internally to produce, or influence or give certain results in conjunction with or in addition to the action of the simple RNG, then the game's return percentage is not simply what the paytable implies.     This is simple enough to understand:   when we play at a casino, any casino we are acting on faith that all the rules and regulations are in place and being followed, and that what the game advertises in terms of pay and performance will in fact take place in the way we expect.    Nevada gaming regulations clearly show and describe Video Poker as having its own set of rules which require each VP machine to function EXACTLY like a dealer with a 52 card deck would, paying exactly what the paytable states it will pay, each and everytime the player hits the "deal" button....regardless of denomination or anything else!      ATlantic City gaming regs are vastly different when it comes to video poker....it pretty much begins and ends with the fact that Video poker is considered "SLOTS", and thus it is feasible as well as acceptable for any given VP machine in any given Atlantic city casino to have a return percentage as low as 83%;    Therefore, using as an example Resorts Casino and its plethora of 8/5 Bonus Poker games......the IMPLIED return percentage is obviously 99.3%, but some of the games could very well be set to deal sufficiently higher frequencies of duds or zero value hands to bring the ACTUAL return down into the range 83% thru 95%.   Some machines will be left alone to return the expected 99.3%   some will be 95%, some 87%   etc.   

[BillyJoe]

[QUOTE=Tedlark] 
2) When another forum poster talks about VP machines with paytables that imply returns,
    what does this mean?  
Implied return percentage/odds simply means just what it says, when you look at a Video Poker game's PAYTABLE, you can estimate what the return percentage should be "OVER THE LONG HAUL"......a 9/6 Jacks or better game, over a long period of time, should return about 99 to 99-1/2% of all money put into it, assuming max coin is bet and the player plays mathematically correct the whole time.      Thus, the paytable IMPLYS that the game will return X percentage.....but if the game is set internally to produce, or influence or give certain results in conjunction with or in addition to the action of the simple RNG, then the game's return percentage is not simply what the paytable implies.   
 
 This is simple enough to understand:   when we play at a casino, any casino we are acting on faith that all the rules and regulations are in place and being followed, and that what the game advertises in terms of pay and performance will in fact take place in the way we expect.    Nevada gaming regulations clearly show and describe Video Poker as having its own set of rules which require each VP machine to function EXACTLY like a dealer with a 52 card deck would, paying exactly what the paytable states it will pay, each and everytime the player hits the "deal" button....regardless of denomination or anything else!    
 
ATlantic City gaming regs are vastly different when it comes to video poker....it pretty much begins and ends with the fact that Video poker is considered "SLOTS", and thus it is feasible as well as acceptable for any given VP machine in any given Atlantic city casino to have a return percentage as low as 83%;    Therefore, using as an example Resorts Casino and its plethora of 8/5 Bonus Poker games......the IMPLIED return percentage is obviously 99.3%, but some of the games could very well be set to deal sufficiently higher frequencies of duds or zero value hands to bring the ACTUAL return down into the range 83% thru 95%.   Some machines will be left alone to return the expected 99.3%   some will be 95%, some 87%   etc.    [/QUOTE]
I know that I have asked this before, but it begs the question. If a casino is manipulating its VP machines to return LESS than the paytable would indicate, then why would a casino (A) lower the paytables EV, and/or (B) increase the coin in required to earn a tier credit?