7000 New VP Machines for Caesars

[BillyJoe]

[QUOTE=Tedlark]   After reading the last few posts I have a couple questions:

1) Would a video poker machine's expected value include such things as comps and all of the little extras that a player such as billyjoe would get? Or is a video poker  machine's expected value only the paytable?

It means that there is value in what you get back from the casino in exchange for your loyalty and your play. For instance we have played exclusively with CET for the last 3 years and have reached 7 stars each year.

In 2013 we received 68 free nights lodging for ourselves and approximately 20 free nights lodging for our friends who took trips with us. We received 13 free round trip air tickets each plus 4 additional for others we brought with us. We have not paid for food in the last 3 years while at the casino. We have eaten at their steakhouses or the crab leg buffets or room service or whatever else we were in the mood for free of charge.

Additionally we get free movies and internet service. We received free concert tickets to the point where we have seen just about everybody that we have ever wanted to see. We get free limo transportation to and from airport. Also if you add to that the free skiing in Tahoe in the winter and the free yacht cruise in the summer and the free horse and buggy rides we get in New Orleans. We also get a free $500 celebration dinner and thousands of dollars of other odds and ends every year.   In addition with CET we use our reward credits to exchange for extra free play. I am sure I have forgotten a few other free things.

So it does make a difference in your expected value to get the extras. I am still able to find machines at the CET properties that I play at that have favorable returns that you can still play at $10 per tier point. There is no way that I would play a VP machine at $25 or $50 per tier credit.

Last year we played at our home property at Bossier City, La., Atlantic City, Windsor Ontario, Las Vegas, Laughlin, New Orleans, Reno, Lake Tahoe, and Tunica and on every occasion I was able to find VP that was 98% expected EV or better. Even at the 25 cent triple play level which is mainly what I play.
Don't forget the (1) annual Seven Star Experience. I took the NCL Epic from NYC on its maiden voyage for mine, (2) the annual NCL cruise. I am taking my niece from Denver to the Caribbean next week, (3) golf at CET-owned golf courses, (4) free use of the spa at resorts, such as The Qua Spa in Caesars LV, and (5) the annual appreciation gift.

[Tedlark]

  You asked a good question in your post billyjoe, it appears to me that it has gone unanswered if you have asked it before?
 
  I am still confused by DaBurglar's post.  I am now trying to make sense between implied and fraud on the part of the casino operators? Is DaBurglar implying fraud?

[Vman96]

I know that I have asked this before, but it begs the question. If a casino is manipulating its VP machines to return LESS than the paytable would indicate, then why would a casino (A) lower the paytables EV, and/or (B) increase the coin in required to earn a tier credit?

They wouldn't because it would be stupid to do so. It would be much smarter on their part to keep the full comps and secretly lower the payback more if they could.

But DaBurglar and I have significant differences in the interpretation of the pertinent New Jersey law as it is currently written. They poorly use the word "slot" instead of an "electronic gaming device" like nearly every other state in the country; as a result, DaBurglar jumps on the "they behave just like slots" bandwagon.

I have no problem calling video poker a "skill-based slot" which is what New Jersey actually calls video poker because I can interpret the law appropriately and the law implies that payback is solely determined by the paytable. I'd prefer it was spelled out more clearly in the regulations of course like Nevada or Mississippi for example, but it's sufficient for anyone with a reasonable knowledge of mathematics and logic. I have given up trying to convince him though. At least a fellow Illinois alum like yourself can figure out my point, I hope.   

[Tedlark]

  Vman I took a different path than you and billyjoe; I went out of state but even though I went out of state I understand your point.

[DaBurglar]

  [QUOTE=billyjoe]
I know that I have asked this before, but it begs the question. If a casino is manipulating its VP machines to return LESS than the paytable would indicate, then why would a casino (A) lower the paytables EV, and/or (B) increase the coin in required to earn a tier credit?

They wouldn't because it would be stupid to do so. It would be much smarter on their part to keep the full comps and secretly lower the payback more if they could.

But DaBurglar and I have significant differences in the interpretation of the pertinent New Jersey law as it is currently written. They poorly use the word "slot" instead of an "electronic gaming device" like nearly every other state in the country; as a result, DaBurglar jumps on the "they behave just like slots" bandwagon.

I have no problem calling video poker a "skill-based slot" which is what New Jersey actually calls video poker because I can interpret the law appropriately and the law implies that payback is solely determined by the paytable. I'd prefer it was spelled out more clearly in the regulations of course like Nevada or Mississippi for example, but it's sufficient for anyone with a reasonable knowledge of mathematics and logic. I have given up trying to convince him though. At least a fellow Illinois alum like yourself can figure out my point, I hope.    [/QUOTE]
  I want to believe Vman is correct, and I can see and understand why he feels the way he feels....its logical and follows the pattern of Nevada Video poker.   As I said before, I first approached and went into AC expecting video poker to be just like Vegas......four plus years of experience in AC, plus numerous conversations with people involved with AC gaming and casinos has led me to the conclusion(s) I now have and have made known to everyone here.    I dont like what video poker in AC has become, but sadly thats the reality as I know it. Let me address Billyjoe first as its late and I am tired.....this discussion will continue tomorrow as My AC poker tourney trip scheduled for this week is postponed until January 5 due to SNOW!!! The AC casinos could not have a bunch of VP games with seemingly "great" paytables (say 99% return) while simultaneously setting the games internally to return a "slot-like" percentage of, say, 88% because that would be way too obvious and stark to the players that something is "off"////think about it......under the current way of doing things, a casino sets its VP to pay out anything from the paytable shown all the way down to 83%.    Now, many of the VP games in AC do in fact have crappy paytables which return percentages like 96%, or worse.....if the casinos choose to take these VP/slot machines down further into 88-90% range, no one really would notice except people like us on this site who are knowledgable and keep track on that level. As regards the whole coin in versus comps situation and why a AC casino would set a VP/slot machine down into the lower slot return percentages, my answer is they actually DONT for those machines with the stickers saying 25 or 50 dollar coin in needed for 1 point......remember, AC casinos can set VP any level they want, including LEAVING IT ALONE.   For machines with a game like 9/6 JOB or 8/5 Bonus, where they are saying you need 50 bucks coin in to earn comps, I am sure those are machines the casino leaves alone and allows the paytable to dictate, thus giving customers better potential play results but very little extra value in comps.   BUT THIS IS NOT guaranteed of course,,,,likewise, on VP machines where they do not post that large COIN-in is needed for comps, I believe it is likely that some or perhaps MANY of those machines are set to return kiw "slot-esque" results like 89-90%, bearing in mind they already have lousy paytables to begin with..... You need to really understand what AC is going through and has been through in terms of LOST business......they are bleeding to death.....this is not simply about manipulating profit or revenue.....this is about survival!  things are bad......and yet I have been told by several casino personel in AC that, back as recently as 2005-2006, MOST VP machines were probably left alone in terms of return percentage, the paytables were raised or lowered but they generally were the final word, which is what most of us players expect.  It wasnt until they started losing all their business to competition and the lousy economy that the VP machines became just another stone to squeeze a few last drops of blood from .....

[Tedlark]

  DaBurglar I'm sorry to hear that your poker tournament was postponed because of snow, it's weird that the tournament would be postponed but stranger things have happened I guess. I was hoping to hear your report after you participated in the tournament but now I guess I'll just have to wait a little while longer.
 
  Anyway, good luck in the tournament, whenever it takes place.

[BillyJoe]

[QUOTE=Vman96]  [QUOTE=billyjoe]

I know that I have asked this before, but it begs the question. If a casino is manipulating its VP machines to return LESS than the paytable would indicate, then why would a casino (A) lower the paytables EV, and/or (B) increase the coin in required to earn a tier credit?      [/QUOTE]  
I want to believe Vman is correct, and I can see and understand why he feels the way he feels....its logical and follows the pattern of Nevada Video poker.   As I said before, I first approached and went into AC expecting video poker to be just like Vegas......four plus years of experience in AC, plus numerous conversations with people involved with AC gaming and casinos has led me to the conclusion(s) I now have and have made known to everyone here.    [/QUOTE]
When you say 'pattern', Burglar, in the context of a random game, that is where I have to disagree with you. By design, VP is a 'game of independent trials', meaning that what happened before has no effect on what happens next.
 
It may appear to you that your experiences with Vegas VP had a 'pattern', but in a fair VP game, it could not. One person playing 4 years would not approach any kind of predictability in that environment.

[olds442jetaway]

[QUOTE=DaBurglar] [QUOTE=Vman96]  [QUOTE=billyjoe]
I know that I have asked this before, but it begs the question. If a casino is manipulating its VP machines to return LESS than the paytable would indicate, then why would a casino (A) lower the paytables EV, and/or (B) increase the coin in required to earn a tier credit?      [/QUOTE]  
I want to believe Vman is correct, and I can see and understand why he feels the way he feels....its logical and follows the pattern of Nevada Video poker.   As I said before, I first approached and went into AC expecting video poker to be just like Vegas......four plus years of experience in AC, plus numerous conversations with people involved with AC gaming and casinos has led me to the conclusion(s) I now have and have made known to everyone here.    [/QUOTE]
When you say 'pattern', Burglar, in the context of a random game, that is where I have to disagree with you. By design, VP is a 'game of independent trials', meaning that what happened before has no effect on what happens next.
 
It may appear to you that your experiences with Vegas VP had a 'pattern', but in a fair VP game, it could not. One person playing 4 years would not approach any kind of predictability in that environment. [/QUOTE]

I think what he means and I could be wrong is the Nevada pattern is really no pattern at all in that things seem to happen when they should in the long run. On the other hand, in his experience and in mine to some extent in Ct., the numbers of dud hands also in the long run, numbers of quads, Royals, etc. vary to the extreme in the wrong direction from what happens in Nevada.

[DaBurglar]

  I think what he means and I could be wrong is the Nevada pattern is really no pattern at all in that things seem to happen when they should in the long run. On the other hand, in his experience and in mine to some extent in Ct., the numbers of dud hands also in the long run, numbers of quads, Royals, etc. vary to the extreme in the wrong direction from what happens in Nevada.
  Amazing!    olds442 actually understood what I meant!   way to go olds!    Billyjoe, perhaps my choice of the word "pattern" threw you off.....sorry about that.   I did not mean that there is a PATERN in the actual video poker games played in Nevada,  I was speaking in GENERAL, GLOBAL terms about the Video Poker MARKET, or Genre......In Nevada, you are correct, every game seems to be truly random and the state's regulations are designed to ensure that.    In AC, I have come to see and believe and conclude that Video Poker is NOT set up to function or follow the way Nevada's video poker functions......  TO TEDLARK:   I said that I cancelled my TRIP to AC due to snow, and as such I personally will miss one of the tournaments I had hoped to play.....I do not know if the actual tournament itself will also be cancelled (it might).     It was simply a daily event so chances are, if the snow keeps enough people away, I would imagine most AC casinos will cancel a lot of things, not just poker....this weather is really bad and will remain so for another day into Friday.  Which also means the weekend crowd upon which AC depends for most of its revenue will be greatly curtailed......AC just cannot catch a break!

[Tedlark]

Let me address Billyjoe first as its late and I am tired.....this discussion will continue tomorrow as My AC poker tourney trip scheduled for this week is postponed until January 5 due to SNOW!!!


  I'm sorry DaBurglar, I may have misunderstood what you wrote above. I didn't see where you said that you canceled, only that it was postponed. I was under the mistaken impression that the whole tournament was postponed because of inclement weather.
 
  Thank you for putting my name in larger font as my eyes must be failing me just as the memory.
 
  Again, I will be rooting for you when you play in a tournament and I hope with you having that thought in your head it will push you to even greater measures of success than you have ever enjoyed.