Distressing CET VP Stories

[DaBurglar]

If I was constantly getting those results I would play somewhere else. You also may want to take a long break and maybe your streak of ruin will end....or find somewhere to play where you have some kind of confidence you are at least able to play correctly and have odds. Having verified what you think I wonder if you are not a little crazy even to play there.
  I have cut back, taken breaks, all that......as I have said before, AC as a destination has a lot to offer, especially in the summer.    I choose to go there because it is really acessible and handicap friendly, it allows me to wheel and go anywhere!     The last 6 months I have reduced my VP play by over 50%, but with that comes a reduction in comps, so to maintain a minimum of comps (i.e. free rooms) so I can pursue my other joy, which is playing REAL live Poker tournaments, I still play a certain amount of VP.   I try to choose the less abysmal paytables and machines which you'd think would be less likely to have been programmed to deal more duds (and thus a reduced return to the player.)   Progressive machines seem to be somewhat safe since they HAVE to eventually deal a royal, lol. But I have already planned two trips to Vegas coming up after the Holidays....it is just a colossal pain in the arse for me to fly these days, otherwise I would write off AC totally.

[Tedlark]

[QUOTE=Tedlark]DaBurglar yoou mention that you have had confirmation from the "Gaming Authority People", what did they confirm?

Edited to add: You also say that Harrahs is well run but in a post here on a different forum topic you slam Harrahs, which is it?
 
I don't want to argue but I'm just looking for clarification.
 
 
I have written before of my experiences with the Gaming commission, the building in AC is located on Tennessee Avenue (although the entrance is somewhat hidden, seemingly by design, lol.)  But you can go in there during business hours and it is usually staffed by two or three people, one of whom is typically a bonafide gaming agent.   They have answered most of my questions about AC gaming regs and policies, but there is one big hole in their info and that is what EACH individual casino is doing at any given moment.  They used to know exactly what every casino was doing and what they had in place in terms of machines and payback, but since 2009 the NJ gaming commission pulled out all its agents from the casinos in massive layoffs, and moved its enforcement into the State police and NJ Bureau of investigation......
 
But they did confirm (including one of their gaming lawyers named "LON" who they got on the phone for me after I tried unsuccessfully several times to contact on the phone) that NJ gaming regs DO INDEED classify Video Poker as simply another version of SLOT machine.  They also confirmed that casinos are allowed to set their slot machines at any payback level they want as long as it is conforms to the limit (83%).    I asked point blank:  "Does this mean that I may be playing VIDEO POKER machines that payback LOWER than they typical 97-98% that most paytables seem to offer?"     Their reply, "YES IT IS POSSIBLE".    They then qualify their remarks of course, saying some casinos may still choose to leave VP alone and simply lower the paytables to really low levels and play with that, others are choosing to simply GET rid of video poker altogether.    Everything they told me made sense and conformed to what I had experienced and seen in the actual casinos.
 
  So the above that I have bolded and underlined tells me that they have not confirmed any wrong doing by the NJ casinos that you have GAMBLED at?
 
  When you (or any of us for that matter) GAMBLE at a casino, there are certain risks that we accept when we decide to GAMBLE at said casino. One risk is that we understand that we may lose our money. If the casinos in NJ are abiding by the letter of the gaming regulations then what's your gripe? If you KNOW going in that the payback percentages MAY be as low as 83% then why do you continue to frop your coin into the slot? I'm sorry but you are reverting back to your "slam AC" persona.

[DaBurglar]

  
I don't want to argue but I'm just looking for clarification.
 
 
 
  So the above that I have bolded and underlined tells me that they have not confirmed any wrong doing by the NJ casinos that you have GAMBLED at?
 
  When you (or any of us for that matter) GAMBLE at a casino, there are certain risks that we accept when we decide to GAMBLE at said casino. One risk is that we understand that we may lose our money. If the casinos in NJ are abiding by the letter of the gaming regulations then what's your gripe? If you KNOW going in that the payback percentages MAY be as low as 83% then why do you continue to frop your coin into the slot? I'm sorry but you are reverting back to your "slam AC" persona.
    wtf???  Its pretty obvious now that you are trying to argue..... I'm not going to debate this with you tedlark because frankly, I am tired of you stalking and pouncing on my posts, trying to bait me or whatever the ........    I HAVE A RIGHT TO post what I want on this forum so long as I do not break anyone's rules.   My experiences center on AC right now so that is what I post about, and the fact that you do not even GO to AC has me really perplexed as to what the heck your problem is with my posts????  If you did venture to AC as much as myself then you'd see a lot of what I am talking about, all the problems and downside, BUT you'd also see all the upside and all the potential, and despite your attempts (and others here) to paint me as some totally negative troll who hates AC, I have always consistently pointed out what I feel are the BRIGHT spots and the potential AC still has along with the problems.....AC could be a great place and it does not have to be the way it is. Furthermore, my posts generally stick to the topic of Video Poker in AC as the central theme, and I am looking for other people who do go to AC to share and comment on what I have experienced....I know I am not the only one experiencing such dismal results in AC!       If you dont want to engage on the issues I raise, then please just IGNORE or bypass my posts.....seriously.    And besides, you totally missed the real overall point of my post, and chose to focus on a small tangential issue and distorted the context with your underline/bold face blurb......

[ko king]

[QUOTE=DaBurglar] [QUOTE=Tedlark]DaBurglar yoou mention that you have had confirmation from the "Gaming Authority People", what did they confirm?

Edited to add: You also say that Harrahs is well run but in a post here on a different forum topic you slam Harrahs, which is it?
 
I don't want to argue but I'm just looking for clarification.
 
 
I have written before of my experiences with the Gaming commission, the building in AC is located on Tennessee Avenue (although the entrance is somewhat hidden, seemingly by design, lol.)  But you can go in there during business hours and it is usually staffed by two or three people, one of whom is typically a bonafide gaming agent.   They have answered most of my questions about AC gaming regs and policies, but there is one big hole in their info and that is what EACH individual casino is doing at any given moment.  They used to know exactly what every casino was doing and what they had in place in terms of machines and payback, but since 2009 the NJ gaming commission pulled out all its agents from the casinos in massive layoffs, and moved its enforcement into the State police and NJ Bureau of investigation......
 
But they did confirm (including one of their gaming lawyers named "LON" who they got on the phone for me after I tried unsuccessfully several times to contact on the phone) that NJ gaming regs DO INDEED classify Video Poker as simply another version of SLOT machine.  They also confirmed that casinos are allowed to set their slot machines at any payback level they want as long as it is conforms to the limit (83%).    I asked point blank:  "Does this mean that I may be playing VIDEO POKER machines that payback LOWER than they typical 97-98% that most paytables seem to offer?"     Their reply, "YES IT IS POSSIBLE".    They then qualify their remarks of course, saying some casinos may still choose to leave VP alone and simply lower the paytables to really low levels and play with that, others are choosing to simply GET rid of video poker altogether.    Everything they told me made sense and conformed to what I had experienced and seen in the actual casinos.
 
  So the above that I have bolded and underlined tells me that they have not confirmed any wrong doing by the NJ casinos that you have GAMBLED at?
 
  When you (or any of us for that matter) GAMBLE at a casino, there are certain risks that we accept when we decide to GAMBLE at said casino. One risk is that we understand that we may lose our money. If the casinos in NJ are abiding by the letter of the gaming regulations then what's your gripe? If you KNOW going in that the payback percentages MAY be as low as 83% then why do you continue to frop your coin into the slot? I'm sorry but you are reverting back to your "slam AC" persona.[/QUOTE]
I'm more than a little confused when it comes to vp in NJ, I could have swore when we were there the machines looked just like the same IGT machines I play in Tunica, best I can remember the payback advertised by the paytables was 97.87% (9/5). How could a casino set a vp machine to pay back as little as 83%, are the machines not run by an RNG?

[jazzman12]

This comes down to whether casinos in AC have 100% Class III VP machines or not.Any Class III machine must have a RNG, which over time will return a payback % based on the stated paytable.Any Class II machine does not have a RNG, but essentially a chip that returns a programmed % payback (say 83%) - even though the paytable for that 83% return may look exactly the same as the Class III machines (but Class II is essentially a slot machine).If AC casinos have recently mixed in Class II machines with Class III machines, then the posters here may indeed be right - that the video poker seems to have changed in AC and payouts of 97% on VP machines seem to be a mirage. The question to ask casino staff, gaming commission members, or whoever has access to that information is whether all VP in AC is 100% Class III or not - and if not, is that legal within the New Jersey Gaming Laws.

[Vman96]

Your description of class II machines is a bit off. Class II is simply electronic bingo. Hitting the deal button on a class II video poker machine will make you play electronic bingo with other casino patrons. You are right that this will allow them to set the payback to whatever they wish because the game is no longer based upon the probabilities of a standard poker deck. In class II, you can throw away quads and you'll get them back.   Do that in AC, Vegas, or any riverboat state, you'll get random crap back.

And the way new jersey law is written, all video poker must be class III with all paybacks determined from the payable and the natural probabilities of a poker deck. DaBurglar can't interpret the relevant law correctly as written.

[jetermacaw]

Harrahs' A.C. "Improved" V.P.

Nov 12, 2013, 9:29 AM




Per the vpFREE2 Casino Database ( http://www.vpfree2.com/
), here are the updated coin-in requirements to earn Tier Points
playing video poker at Harrahs' A.C.. Note that these rates apply to all
99%+ v.p. and not just full-pay 9/6 JoB.



$25-coin-In = 1 Base Reward Credit on 99%+ Video Poker in Diamond Cove

$50-coin-In = 1 Base Reward Credit on 99%+ Video Poker in Section DD

$10-coin-In = 1 Base Reward Credit on Other Video Poker

[DaBurglar]

    DaBurglar can't interpret the relevant law correctly as written.
  There is nothing to interpret, its pretty clear and plain.   VP is simply a form of "SLOTS" as the NJ gaming regs are definied and written. A class III machine is exactly what you state, based on RNG, and in its straightforward and purest form a machine's payback is dictated by its paytable.    But the games still can be, and actually come equipped with, options and utilities that end users (i.e. Casinos) can modify and tweak to fit any number of custom settings or business definied requirements, including setting the machine's RNG to deal MORE zero value hands in its mix of random hands to bring the return rate down below the typical VP paytable range into slot machine range.    Its a very simple and common feature that most game software comes equipped with.....if you play any type of computer game, such as combat simulators or something like warcraft, etc.  they are all based on simple random number genration, but you can weight results to fall a certain way or within a certain range.   Video Poker is one of the simplest forms of game using RNG. Do not take my word for it.....next time you go to AC, ASK any slot manager (dont ask an attendant or even a supervisor, ask to speak to the SLOT manager) and point blank ask them: "Is the video Poker machines in your casino ALL set to return a percentage to me based Solely on the paytable?"     I guarantee you will NOT get a straightforward "YES" answer......and then if that is not enough, go to the gaming control office on Tennesse Avenue, and pose the same question(s).......Do it, do not take my word for it, but also do not sit here and argue with me when I have done all this leg work and experience and all you are coming with is your own wishful thinking and interpretation.  Edited to add:   To answer my own question rhetorically, "are all the vp machines et to return based solely on the paytable", the correct answer in AC's case is "Some, but not all machines are set that way."    Of course, the simplest direct honest answer is "No they are not" but that is too negative and absolute.    In AC, casinos can set their VP machines anyway they want, from straight up paytable return % all the way down to the lowest allowable SLOT return.   So sayeth the gaming control people.....and so sayeth Daburglar based on the playresults I have seen the last four plus years.

[Tedlark]

  DaBurglar you are only telling half truths when you stated that a video poker machine is considered a slot under New Jersey Regulations and therefore a video poker machine can have a return set as low as 83%.
 
 New Jersey Casino Division of Gaming Enforecment Regulations.
 
13:69E-1.28A Standards for the Approval of a slot machine game;
(a) except as otherwise provided in this section each slot machine game which requires a wager shall have a RTP (Return To Player) equal to or greater than 83%.
 
13:69E-1.28A(g)
A slot machine game that requires skilled strategy choices, such as VIDEO POKER, shall:
 
1 - Have its theoretical RTP calculated based upon the player exercising optimal strategy
     during game play;
2 - Disclose optimal strategy to achieve the highest theoretical RTP; or
3 - Provide mathematically sufficient information for the patron to derive optimal strategy
     in order to achieve the highest theoretical RTP.
 
  I could get into the regs about machine RNG's and tampering, RAM requirements, etc. but that gets kind of dry.
 
  My interpretation of the reg is this: if a video poker machine states a certain payout RTP on it, i.e. "This machine pays out 98%" then it pays out 98% and not the low of 83% as you profess.
 
  I am not baiting you nor do I want to argue but you make both very easy to accomplish.As someone else said; you only interpret the regs the way you want them to be interpreted and why do you continue to play if you think the games are not fair?

[Vman96]

[QUOTE=Vman96]    DaBurglar can't interpret the relevant law correctly as written.
  There is nothing to interpret, its pretty clear and plain.   VP is simply a form of "SLOTS" as the NJ gaming regs are definied and written. A class III machine is exactly what you state, based on RNG, and in its straightforward and purest form a machine's payback is dictated by its paytable.    But the games still can be, and actually come equipped with, options and utilities that end users (i.e. Casinos) can modify and tweak to fit any number of custom settings or business definied requirements, including setting the machine's RNG to deal MORE zero value hands in its mix of random hands to bring the return rate down below the typical VP paytable range into slot machine range.    Its a very simple and common feature that most game software comes equipped with.....if you play any type of computer game, such as combat simulators or something like warcraft, etc.  they are all based on simple random number genration, but you can weight results to fall a certain way or within a certain range.   Video Poker is one of the simplest forms of game using RNG. Do not take my word for it.....next time you go to AC, ASK any slot manager (dont ask an attendant or even a supervisor, ask to speak to the SLOT manager) and point blank ask them: "Is the video Poker machines in your casino ALL set to return a percentage to me based Solely on the paytable?"     I guarantee you will NOT get a straightforward "YES" answer......and then if that is not enough, go to the gaming control office on Tennesse Avenue, and pose the same question(s).......Do it, do not take my word for it, but also do not sit here and argue with me when I have done all this leg work and experience and all you are coming with is your own wishful thinking and interpretation.  Edited to add:   To answer my own question rhetorically, "are all the vp machines et to return based solely on the paytable", the correct answer in AC's case is "Some, but not all machines are set that way."    Of course, the simplest direct honest answer is "No they are not" but that is too negative and absolute.    In AC, casinos can set their VP machines anyway they want, from straight up paytable return % all the way down to the lowest allowable SLOT return.   So sayeth the gaming control people.....and so sayeth Daburglar based on the playresults I have seen the last four plus years.


[/QUOTE]

Well if this is true, good to know that New Jersey doesn't follow the laws they write. Because the way the law is AS WRITTEN, video poker must be determined by the paytable. We have gone over this over and over.

Taken from pages 157 and 158 of this gigantic document.

New Jersey Gaming Equipment Regulations

§ 13:69E-1.28A Standards for the approval of a slot machine game

   (a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, each slot machine game which requires a wager shall have a theoretical return to player (RTP) equal to or greater than 83 percent.

(b) Except as otherwise provided in this section, all winning combinations used in achieving the minimum theoretical RTP for each slot machine game shall be available on each play that requires a wager.

(c) Slot machines shall not offer a play with odds greater than 100 million to 1.

(d) The theoretical RTP of a slot machine game shall not decrease by more than one-hundredth of a percentage point with an increased wager unless the aggregate total of the decreases in theoretical RTP for plays offered by the slot machine game is no more than one-half of one percent.

(e) The following shall not be included as a payout when determining the theoretical RTP of a slot machine:

1. A payout of merchandise or thing of value;

2. A complimentary; or

3. A limited time payout.

(f) The projected contribution from a progressive award may count toward the theoretical RTP of a slot machine in order to achieve the minimum theoretical RTP as approved by the Division.

(g) A slot machine game that requires skilled strategy choices, such as video poker, shall:

1. Have its theoretical RTP calculated based upon the player exercising optimal strategy during game play;

2. Disclose optimal strategy to achieve the highest theoretical RTP; or

3. Provide mathematically sufficient information for the patron to derive optimal strategy in order to achieve the highest theoretical RTP.

The mathematically correct interpretation of above rule:
#3 is NOT satisfied UNLESS the game is dealt from a random poker deck with each card having the same probability.

If I ever went to Atlantic City (I have no good reason to), I could bother to visit them, but unless they let me record their response and post it somewhere where this forum could listen to it, it will be pointless because you wouldn't believe me anyway. Just like you probably don't believe that #3 forces the game to be played with a random poker deck with each card having the same probability to be legal.

If you can give an example of a video poker game that returns at least 1% less than what the paytable would dictate assuming random and equal probability for each card, and the following regulation:

3. Provide mathematically sufficient information for the patron to derive optimal strategy in order to achieve the highest theoretical RTP.

still remains true from just paytable data alone, and the "Wizard of Odds", Michael Shackleford, agrees with your findings, I'll paypal you $500. Hell, this just doesn't go for you. This challenge is for anyone who reads this. I'm willing to put money where my mouth is, are you, DaBurglar?