casino integrity

[gregorio]

There isn't an iota of a doubt that the frequency of good or handpay hands drastically decreased  in the last 5 years or so. This typical Tedlark argument about casinos being afraid to be found guilty of tempering with the machines is nothing short of ridiculous. Who is going to find them guilty of tempering? The staff of gaming commission?  Really? Have you seen any lately? There used to be an office of the gaming commission representative in every casino in AC. They've ALL been closed for years. There is NO NJ gambling commission any more. It's now part of  attorney general office and they got more important things to do. Moreover Tedlark, where did you get the idea that VP is any different then slots? As far as AC is concerned all machines are slot machines. That's a fact and nobody from the Attorney General Office is going to test the VP machines for integrity, not they would even know how to test them. Your statements regarding casinos loosing their license because of some slot machine irregularity are laughable to say the least. Casinos in NJ are closing because they can't make it, but the Gaming Enforcement will relentlessly dig to uncover machine tampering so they can close another casino, deprive New Jersey of an important revenue source so that the people that are employed  by the Division of Gaming Enforcement will have nothing to enforce and become unemployed like the rest of us? Is that what they are trying to do? Loose their nice easy jobs so that players get more jackpots? Oh yeh, that makes sense!

[olds442jetaway]

[QUOTE=olds442jetaway] Ditto....At least a 3 percent drop since 2010. I play over one million hands a year also and have been playing well over 20 years. The only thing I notice an increase in is some premium hands for certain games, but Royals are way, way off. One of my earlier posts this year speaks to my going well over 500k hands without a Royal. It went back on schedule for a couple of months, and now seems like it is starting up that Royalless streak again. I haven't kept close tabs this time, but this streak is well over 150k hands already. I am not counting Royals that may have hit on multi line games on other than the deal line which I doplay about 10 percent of total hands played. I have been tracking job separately since 2011 and with over 2 million hands played just on that game, results are in the 96-97 percent range on a 99.54 percent game with almost perfect play.

10% of your time playing is on multi-line? How many lines are you playing when you play multiline? Because if you don't "count" these multiline royals, but still count ALL those hands in your total hand count (I dunno if you do), then that's very misleading.

I'm praying to God I do not get my next Royal on a multiline game unless I'm playing Ultimate X.    Earlier this year I bricked 9 4 to a Royal draws playing pennies. I would have taken it...but I wouldn't be thrilled about it.[/QUOTE]

     Multi line games are not counted at all in my total hand count. In other words, in any statistics I site on returns, they are from counting only total single line games played and the corresponding hits on them. I only play multi line for a diversion and don't pay much attention to anything except any premium hands that may appear on the deal line. The only thing I remember about those is I have never that I can remember been dealt a quad on regular draw poker on the deal line unless I was just playing that deal line. In that case, I would count that as part of a single line game count since that is all I was playing. As to playing multi line games in general, I have had the best success playing between 10 and 12 lines at a time even if the machine allowed 100 play. That could be coincidence, but I think there is something to it. Ten percent of my total time played on multi line games is still a lot of hands to never have been dealt a quad on the bottom line. I have however, been dealt a few straight flushes on job multi line games, and one dealt Royal on a 3 cent spin poker game some years back with 12 lines played. All of this could be coincidence of course. We all remember these oddbell situations, but forget about something unimportant like the astronomical odds of every hand being dealt in the exact order and suit. Like a junk hand in job being tossed. The probability of that hand coming out exactly that way is mind boggling. The probability of that exact hand appearing on the next deal is even more mind boggling. I have had that happen a few times as I'm sure some others have had too. My original post probably should have stated ten percent of my total time played and not hands. I was using hands as a generic term, but time played would be a better picture.

[Tedlark]

There isn't an iota of a doubt that the frequency of good or handpay hands drastically decreased  in the last 5 years or so. This typical Tedlark argument about casinos being afraid to be found guilty of tempering with the machines is nothing short of ridiculous. Who is going to find them guilty of tempering? The staff of gaming commission?  Really? Have you seen any lately? There used to be an office of the gaming commission representative in every casino in AC. They've ALL been closed for years. There is NO NJ gambling commission any more. It's now part of  attorney general office and they got more important things to do. Moreover Tedlark, where did you get the idea that VP is any different then slots? As far as AC is concerned all machines are slot machines. That's a fact and nobody from the Attorney General Office is going to test the VP machines for integrity, not they would even know how to test them. Your statements regarding casinos loosing their license because of some slot machine irregularity are laughable to say the least. Casinos in NJ are closing because they can't make it, but the Gaming Enforcement will relentlessly dig to uncover machine tampering so they can close another casino, deprive New Jersey of an important revenue source so that the people that are employed  by the Division of Gaming Enforcement will have nothing to enforce and become unemployed like the rest of us? Is that what they are trying to do? Loose their nice easy jobs so that players get more jackpots? Oh yeh, that makes sense!
   gregorio I'd like to say that I am alone in my thinking but that would not be the truth. I got the idea that VP is different from slots because there are seperate stipulations on video poker in the gaming regulations independent of the slot regulations. I am not the only one here who has found them before.    As for the idea of a casino not concerning themselves with the loss of their gaming license, or even getting fined and not worrying about the bad press that tags along with it; I find it laughable that you don't agree.   If the powers that be who are controlling casino gaming in Atlantic City were so concerned about not slaying the golden goose they would have allready granted the tax reversals that Carl Icahn is asking for in order to help save the Taj.

[DaBurglar]

     gregorio I'd like to say that I am alone in my thinking but that would not be the truth. I got the idea that VP is different from slots because there are seperate stipulations on video poker in the gaming regulations independent of the slot regulations. I am not the only one here who has found them before.    As for the idea of a casino not concerning themselves with the loss of their gaming license, or even getting fined and not worrying about the bad press that tags along with it; I find it laughable that you don't agree.   If the powers that be who are controlling casino gaming in Atlantic City were so concerned about not slaying the golden goose they would have allready granted the tax reversals that Carl Icahn is asking for in order to help save the Taj. I respectfully disagree with the highlighted portion of this response.....it is totally illogical, and here is why:  "the powers that be" must be a vague reference to the state and city government officials who take the tax revenue they earn from the casinos and spend it....that is to say. the proverbial "gold eggs" from the golden goose.  What the casino of Carl Icahn is asking for is to essentially cut back on the gold eggs DRASTICALLY, which kinda defeats the whole point of having the casinos in the first place, much of the benefit is lost.   And the requested modification offered by Carl Icahn was a negotiating starting point.....he will accept something more modest now that the MAJOR hurdle of union costs have been removed at least for the near future.   THAT is why the "powers that be" did not just automatically cave in and give the greedy jerk everything he wanted....But back to Gregorio's impassioned statement:    Tedlark is correct about there being different regs for VP than for slots, but in the case of New Jersey's regs it is very muddled....but Gregorio is absolutely correct in stating the NJ gaming authorities are severely curtailed in their ability to actually check machines....if....IF a casino or someone in a casino in AC wanted to pull some crap with their machines now is the time to do it.And I think we can all agree that, SURE, if in fact a casino were to actually be caught and MADE PUBLIC that they were juking or otherwise doing something to their machines, then yes it would be extremely detrimental, no doubt about it.....BUT......that actually happening is NOT as easy or straightforward or simple as one might imagine.....think of ALL the things that would have to happen, all the things that would have to fall into place, for such a scandal to be first uncovered, and then publicized to the extent needed to damage a casino's reputation.   HIGHLY UNLIKELY, even if they are juking their slots or VP machines.   Think about it......The oft mentioned securities scandals of wall street, a supposedly HIGHLY regulated business, does not nor has not prevent all the crap that has happened, or is happening as we read......The gaming industry is not inherently different, nor are the people who run it regardless of what they want us to believe.It is naivete to think the "loss of a license" would scare off truly desperate people.....

[Tedlark]

DaBurglar the reduction in property tax revenue caused by a devaluation of the property would be offset by any increase in gaming tax revenue arrived at by getting more players back through the doors.

However, this would be contingent on a deal being made to keep the Taj open and if it closes; there goes the property tax revenue AND gaming tax revenue.

Carl Icahn did not ascend to his position by being dumb and he is financially able to walk away from the deal any time he wants to. But HE also mirrors a casino because he ultimately doesn't like to lose money either.

[BillyJoe]

The bottom line is, more play = more profits. Taking a player from casino A to casino B in the same market does not move the needle.

The cure for AC, or ANY casino market for that matter, is to INCREASE the number of players, and have those players wager MORE and play LONGER. And I am not talking about a casino full of penny machines, filled with people playing one coin. I do not know what the optimum number of casinos needs to be in AC, but whatever it is, the overall gaming market needs to GROW there.

The casinos have the edge in EVERY game that they provide, so all they need is play. Anything other than that is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

As far as 'fixing' VP machines to pay less than their paytable would infer over time, I think that is baloney. The VP machines that are procured from manufacturers such as IGT and Ballys leave their facilities certified to be random. To alter that, albeit illegally, would take additional programming applied AFTER the machine is installed. Quite frankly, I do not believe that AC casino operators are that smart, and even if they were, would NEVER be able to conceal the tampering for all these years. I believe that what we are seeing, instead, is the progress in VP machine technology to ensure that no discernible pattern of cards is presented, resulting in the 'good hands' whizzing by faster, and tougher to catch.

[spxChrome]

What i saw in many cases was the same, the inability to draw the payoff card on premium hands. Is this just bad luck? When it happens so many hundreds of times, it raises my concern

This is exactly the case. I log every quad I hit and have for years. I play 99% single line. A few observations this year is that my premium quads to junk quads are so skewed it should be illegal (this has been a trend for 4 years in a row). My quad aces should always lead the quad count since I break any aces full, hold singles unsuited aces and toss any 2nd pair with a pair of aces. Here is my count this year.

Aces x 52
When I look at junk quads they are all over 100+ with 8's at a staggering 189 times.

You pretty much have to get it dealt cause like you said completing a premium quad is next to impossible at high denoms.

[chattycattty]

The bottom line is, more play = more profits. Taking a player from casino A to casino B in the same market does not move the needle.

The cure for AC, or ANY casino market for that matter, is to INCREASE the number of players, and have those players wager MORE and play LONGER. And I am not talking about a casino full of penny machines, filled with people playing one coin. I do not know what the optimum number of casinos needs to be in AC, but whatever it is, the overall gaming market needs to GROW there.

The casinos have the edge in EVERY game that they provide, so all they need is play. Anything other than that is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

As far as 'fixing' VP machines to pay less than their paytable would infer over time, I think that is baloney. The VP machines that are procured from manufacturers such as IGT and Ballys leave their facilities certified to be random. To alter that, albeit illegally, would take additional programming applied AFTER the machine is installed. Quite frankly, I do not believe that AC casino operators are that smart, and even if they were, would NEVER be able to conceal the tampering for all these years. I believe that what we are seeing, instead, is the progress in VP machine technology to ensure that no discernible pattern of cards is presented, resulting in the 'good hands' whizzing by faster, and tougher to catch.

I agree with everything you are saying only to add that they are lowering pay tables to generate what they think are more profits. The only problem is that in many cases changing a ddb game, for instance, from 9/6 to 9/5 or 8/5 in many cases will cause many vp players to cut their play back significantly thereby erasing whatever profits they may have gained by lowering the pay tables.

[notes1]

Regarding "more play= more profits", i could not agree more. But, what happes when you get less play. What happens when gaming revenue drops by almost almost one half over a 7 year time period. As a casino owner, do you just stand by and watch your business go under, or are you tempted to try anything? Every business has an absolute minimum amout of revenue requirement to meet fixed expenses.     One may not agree that machines are being fixed, but, to assume that casio operators are not smart enough to know how to reduce payouts seems naive. Even the most ardent supporters of casino integrity acknowledge that slot payouts have been reduced.    I originally brought up this topic because i wanted to know if other VP players has noticed the same thing as i did. My experience has been that since approx 2009, the cost of playing vp at the casinos had increased by a factor of 2-3 times.   

[royal flush]

look at the paytables they have declined the downgrades when czr ceo Loveman started cutting the games and comps 15 years ago at caesars on the strip had 9/6 job with good comps making it a 100% game, and dollar fpdw was all around