Difference between a pro and recreational gambler

[BobDancer]

VP is over 99.9% Rec League. We prefer to dodge Bankroll Wrecks each week. I am by now  reconciled with the high probability of losing $20 an hour on VP. My absolute ceiling.
I'm not sure about your 99.9% figure, but you are correct. The vast majority of players aren't successful at video poker.Keep in mind, however, that losing is a progressive disease. Over time, you may well get so use to minus $20 an hour that you creep up to minus $30 or minus xxx. Saying it could never happen to you is like the newlyweds who say "Our love is different. We will never divorce." Half of them end up being wrong --- even though they were absolutely sure not so long before. (Unfortunately, I can speak to this with more experience than I would like to have. Presumably on a forum of this size, a significant percentage of the participants here have been through this as well.)You may recognize a dollar progressive is at a really high number and sit down to play. A half hour and $300 later somebody else hits it. You may decide playing at that level sometimes in pretty exciting. And if you do, there goes your absolute ceiling.It's happened to others.

[misterlister]

Are you guys kidding us? Florida Phil, where did you get the idea that a NEGATIVE game always means you must lose money on it? Have some faith. In the short amount of time the vast majority of us play, a few percent or a few mistakes isn't going to make much of a difference. It's only GOING IN that makes a difference, because knowing that a game is even .1% on the positive side gives us the right amount of false hope and aspiration where we can play thinking we have an edge. Winning for us can occur on any machine, and over time, you just never really know. I've always wondered how many mistakes these experts make anyway, because they sure wouldn't admit to it.

And Dancer, give us a break. Most of us here have the same level of understanding about video poker as you do. You act like it takes some kind of god to figure it out, to understand how and when to play with an edge, how to use abuse and manipulate the slot clubs, and why you don't play without that theoretical thing on your mind. There's nothing hard about it, nothing. It's the amount of effort and persistence and obsession you use that's different. I personally wouldn't waste my time like you do. I'd much rather spend every day with my dog over going to those casinos that often.

[onemoretry]

Most of us here have the same level of understanding about video poker as you do. You act like it takes some kind of god to figure it out, to understand how and when to play with an edge, how to use abuse and manipulate the slot clubs, and why you don't play without that theoretical thing on your mind. There's nothing hard about it, nothing.
All that being the case, why did you bother to join what you thought was a serious forum to "learn a little more", when there appears to be nothing more to learn?

[rascal]

Bob, thanks for offering us some insight. 18 years ago --- now those were the days!
Yes, it has always been the long run that counts in VP. But put yourself in the eyes of rec players. It's like fishing. A commercial fisherman has a good season or a bad season. He doesn't (for the most part) reach down into his nets and pull out a good-size fish and take a photo of it and send the photo to an internet forum --- instead, it is the weight of his annual haul that counts. But for a guy who goes out into deep water on infrequent occasions, it's pulling in the big one that counts.
Both the commercial fisherman and the recreational fisherman have worthy callings, and each can achieve more with respect and understanding of what the other one does and how he does it.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=BobDancer]Perhaps my criticism of your cheap strategy has turned you into an enemy. I hope not.[/quote]Not at all. While I do think the whole idea of professional gambling is absurd, I do not for a minute harbor any ill will or negative thoughts about you personally.  I suspect the negativity you perceived is a misinterpretation of my attempt at humor. I have been called arrogant and self indulgent most of my life due to people misunderstanding my statements.  I truly enjoy having discussions with intelligent people and am often persuaded that my ideas may not be accurate for everyone and every situation.  People who rely on personal attacks as their main mode of discourse are rarely intelligent, they're just out of original ideas. 

[Carcounter]

There are a group of recreational players that will only play 99.5% plus games and can sometimes get a slight edge like last Thursday when Borgata had 4x slot dollars. We are not pros, but we understand that the higher the payback percentage and the higher the cashback the more chances you have to hit something big. Why play a 97.3% machine when there is a 99.5% machine right next to it? The extra hands you get to play over a 3 hr. session are substantial. I am up overall for the last 10ys, but down for the last 3yrs, not much but a little. I don't think it is a coincidence that I did better in 2005, 2006 and 2007 when there were 100% plus games in AC.

[wildman49]

            8.   Sometimes I
win in "special categories." In the past five years, for example, I've
won more than $250K in casino drawings at a wide variety of places (plus
two cars), in six different states. Sometimes casinos don't count that
in a player's win/loss total because they have already budgeted those
promotional expenses and for the most part don't care which player
receives them. But I count that money the same as if it was won at a
machine. Choosing which drawings to enter and how many tickets to earn
is every bit as much a part of advantage play as to knowing which
machine to play and how to play the hands correctly. Being too smart to
"win every week" at the drawings is a lesson not everybody has learned.       
So you lose at VP and make it up in cars, drawings, food, rooms and so on to be in the black for the year. Got it.  The only  Difference between a pro and recreational gambler is BANKROLL.If I add in all other non vp wins like gas cards, drawings, slot tournaments, food vouchers, rooms, I am in the black this year to!

[BobDancer]

QUOTE=wildman49]

So you lose at VP and make it up in cars, drawings, food, rooms and so on to be in the black for the year. Got it.  The only  Difference between a pro and recreational gambler is BANKROLL.If
I add in all other non vp wins like gas cards, drawings, slot
tournaments, food vouchers, rooms, I am in the black this year to!

[/QUOTE]If you are ahead including those things, you are quite a bit ahead of most recreational players. Most recreational players aren't close to being even even including a retail price on all the goodies. There is no universal definition of winning. Personally I include cash and free play as wins --- whether the cash comes from a machine, tournament, drawing, some other contest, or mailer. I definitely do not include gas cards, food vouchers, rooms, cruises, or cars. Nor do I include money I receive from writing, royalties, teaching, or hosting a radio show. I include such revenue on my tax return, of course, (along with Social Security and a small pension from somewhere I worked for six years), but I don't count it towards whether I'm winning or losing as a player. With no universally accepted definition, I can't claim my definition is better than yours. But I can say "this is how I do it." I strongly disagree that the biggest difference between pros and recreational players is bankroll. I know FPDW players in Vegas who grind out $15,000 a year. They have pretty small bankrolls. I consider them pros. I wouldn't want to live on that much, but I did when I was starting out. (You do what you have to do.) As an addition to Social Security or maybe a pension, these folks get by with video poker being their source of income. The average Seven Stars member at Caesars Entertainment probably loses $150,000 or more a year. (I made that number up. I have no hard statistics to back it up. But I believe it to be true.) I would not call such a person a pro at all even though they can play at this level without too much discomfort.I call a pro someone who regularly comes out ahead at the end of the year from gambling activities. If you can do that, you're a pro. If you can't, you're not.But in order to win, you need to work very hard at it (or at least I do.) It's not easy. And the same techniques that worked 10 years ago don't work so well today. It requires a significantly different mindset than recreational players have. I can't tell you all pros think alike, any more than all recreational players think alike.It's not part of my definition, but most pros have records that can tell you how much they won or lost on the day they played last year closest to April 17, or August 9, or any other date. (Not that we will tell you, but we could.) Relatively few recreational players keep such records. Many will tell you, "I think I'm about even." Las Vegas was built by players who think they are about even..

[Carcounter]

Grinding out 15k a year on FPDW. I'd rather move to Seattle and make $15/hr flipping burgers.

[wildman49]

If you are ahead including those things, you are quite a bit ahead of most recreational players. Most recreational players aren't close to being even even including a retail price on all the goodies. There is no universal definition of winning. Personally I include cash and free play as wins --- whether the cash comes from a machine, tournament, drawing, some other contest, or mailer. I definitely do not include gas cards, food vouchers, rooms, cruises, or cars. With no universally accepted definition, I can't claim my definition is better than yours. But I can say "this is how I do it." I call a pro someone who regularly comes out ahead at the end of the year from gambling activities. If you can do that, you're a pro. If you can't, you're not.So the pace I am going I am looking like a pro by year end. I finally got something out of BOB that makes me happy, Thank you! The cheap  strategies are working for me and since I can play near even for the year so far I am not giving it up since max bet cost me 4% plus since 2009. Don't knock a system till you try it. In your mind it don't work but a few of us semi pros are showing it can and does work not just 10 trips, but over a years time.