How much do we still not know?

[williejoe]

just to help out the crew here-----there is a big difference in reseeding the prgn algorithm and taking a sip of coffee and letting the prgn progress down its random number sequence. remember the psrng is usually known as a drbg-----or deterministic random bit generator-----once a seed integer(s) has been entered----its output stream is known, reproducable and documentable. by reseeding you create an entirely new stream sequence of random numbers with its own "personality"---again with that particular seed, the stream ( or random number sequence) is totally deterministic. if on the other hand you sip your coffee and scratch your balls----the prng will continue to generate thousands of random numbers per second-----but it will move down the same set of numbers in that number stream associated with that particular seed. no matter how or when the algorithm is seeded the period ( how many random numbers before the sequence repeats )is truly staggering----for the mersenne twister its about 2 to the 2000 power. and while the prng spits out thousands of random numbers per second-----these represent a very small fraction of the full number sequence--------and it is these "segments" of the full number stream-----while random----result is what we see as "hot" and "cold" streaks. and if someone ( like igt ) knows the algorithm, the seeding and how the output of the prng is assigned to represent what card------then, in theory, reseeding can relocate and change the "personality" of the hot and cold number segments. i'm not saying they do this-----i'm saying that could do this and still be well within state regulations and qualify as a random deal of the cards. i'm not saying that i know that vp in vegas and biloxi is "tilted"----i'm saying is could be. tedlark, just make sure you pour the coolaid out your tin hat before donning it

[sam434343]

williejoe,I don't know you but, I have idea you know what your talking about, and have look into it. You have put more information about how it can(chip RNG) and cannot be done, in a past thread I have talked with a Professor Major Unver. he used a lot words you used, plus few more. I will look to see more of your post on this information. Sam   P.S. You know your going to get heat from some of the VP players in here, but what you have written makes sences to me. Sam

[Tedlark]

  I don't remember the last time I drank kool aid, it might have been during a Cub Scout den meeting with Mrs. C. That would have been around the time that Nixon was just announcing his resignation. Lately I have had a preference for raspberry green tea, diet coke, or coffee.

[shadowman]

Wiilyjoe, reseeding gives you a different range but since a typical player is only sampling a very small number of that range it's really hard to say the range itself makes much difference.

I once ran a test on the mersenne twister RNG to look at the variation found by using different seeds. I found very little, something like + or - 3% over a 200K hands for JOB. I also computed the number of RNG cycles at 200K/second on my PC which is probably 100x faster than a VP machine. This would mean a VP machine could generate 2000 hands/second. Given a typical player at 600 hands/hour plays each hand in 6 seconds one should expect about 12,000 possible hands for each played hand.

Given this number, those 200K hands would correspond to a 16 actual hands for a normal player (probably less). Not all that many.

[EDC1977]

  Tedlark, don't forget to tip your tinfoil hat to CDDenver as he watches. Thanks for the link Shadow.

[BillyJoe]

[QUOTE=billyjoe]
Thanks, Shadow. I probably remember the brick analogy from your post.  

So then, the 'seeding' would be where I started my fly over, like Dallas,TX ?  

If this is so, is it possible to have no bricks with Quads or an RF between Dallas and Atlanta? This would mean that the 'seeding' could get you into a 'dead area' as far as premium hands, while still conforming to regulations, since the premium hands exist from Atlanta to New York.  
 
Thoughts ?
You would not see any dead zone that large. You might see a dead zone from Dallas to Fort Worth but not much longer. I believe most of the software tutors do not use a continuous shuffle technique. They would be a good example of what you might have seen in the past. [/QUOTE]
OK - so on with my education. If (and I stress IF) there was a 'dead zone' between Dallas and Ft Worth, in my brick analogy, how long would I have to wait to 'fly' by that zone? In other words, if I think I encounter a dead RNG string portion on a VP game, how long do I have to wait for the machine to either (A) reseed to a different point, or (B) the RNG string moves past the numbers in that segment? 

[shadowman]

Billyjoe, I think my response above answers this question. You would play about 16 hands (96 seconds) to get to a new segment with + or - 3% variation. Your own variation will be much higher for so few hands.

The fact is you could happen to hit good hands even in a poor segment or bad hands in a good segment.

[DaBurglar]

I just now read the latest direction of this thread and find it compelling in many respects.....first off, I think it is semantics to distiguish between "tilted" and rigged, either the machine is fair or it is not, and if we start splitting hairs by saying a machine can be tilted/rigged and yet still conform to regulations ....well then, wtf are we even doing playing VP aanymore?   I am asking a question here kids, a serious question.... Williejoe stated, in his "tilt" definition that it is a question of "IF" a casino does this, not whether they can or cannot do this...the fact is (as I have been saying since DAY ONE) casinos CAN do this, it just is a matter of IF they are doing it on any given day on any given machine that YOU or I might choose.... The actual process of how a casino might do this is wide open and varied, and I know it uses menus and options and settings buried within the work screens and menus that casino personel access doing whatever it is they need to do to VP machines as part of the workday....its intuitive people! NO WAY are casinos going to really take that much of a risk/chance anymore in this ultra competitive day and age with a bunch of machines that are truly 99% (or better in Nevada) where they might actually have a short but intense period (say a week or even several weeks) where they do not make much money or even LOSE money with their VP machines, thus causing a BAD month or even a BAD quarter....it HAS happened in the past, but the past is just that, the PAST.  These days, a casino's management answers to volatile and impatient forces, especially publicly traded casinos.   So I say the question of "IF" is answered more often than not as a YES than a NO these days, whether or not it complies with gaming regs or not.  (I AM SHOUTING NOW)  I have stated before.....a casino, or a casino's Corporate entity (like CAESARS) does not, will not, CANNOT, automatically and instantly LOSE their license simply because some of their machines are found to be slightly "tilted".....it just does not work that way people.....it doesnt!!!   This part of the whole game is not as mysterious as what we are discussing above.....If Caesars operates its casinos in Nevada one way, in AC another way and other states a third way, and it turns out that the machines running in AC would not COMPLY WITH NEVADA REGS, but NJ Regs are adhered to (or NJ Gaming Officials ignore any "tilting"), NOBODY's Reputation is destroyed or anything like that, which some of the alrm birds on this site insist.    What is far more likely to be damaging to casinos across state lines are issues dealing with employee problems and union problems, discrimination, underage gambling, hiring of people with ill-repute or criminal backgrounds, Money Laundering, and all kinds of other human Soap Opera issues.   Algorythmic differences, manipulation, operational differences, and the like will NOT stir the bees nest like Human issues, they just wont.....mainly because, MOST people are neither interested nor capable of comprehending just what the hell we are discussing in this very thread right here....in fact, most gaming agents (in NJ anyway) probably do not get it either!

[faygo]

Guess it is just nuts of The Atlqntic Club to offer 5x points on Slot Machines only and not VP,  Why keep up the pretense?

[DaBurglar]

Guess it is just nuts of The Atlqntic Club to offer 5x points on Slot Machines only and not VP,  Why keep up the pretense?
 I just received my JUNE booklet from them and in mine it does NOT exclude VP....and last month, I had a 3X comps day at the AC club and my VP play was counted......???? go figure???