Major mistake?

[ko king]

In my not so humble opinion, if you don't have the balls to hold a kicker while playing TDB, you really shouldn't be playing TDB! I sure tend to avoid it (except for contests)...I'm a wuss!!

If you never hold the kicker in TDB, that costs you 0.74% in return overall from that error ALONE!!! So that means if 9/7 TDB and 9/6 DDB are both available to you. If you aren't holding the kicker, you really should be playing DDB!!!

And think of it this way. Which is the most valuable hand of these 3 in TDB? Which is the worst? AAA + kicker, AQJT suited, or AAA only?

Hint: AQJT suited is NOT the best.

All this being said, I'm glad you still hit Aces regardless of the mathematically correct hold.

Maybe 20% of my play now is dedicated to TDB, I spent 2 years playing 99.57% pay back TDB and always held the kickers, got beat to death those 2 years. Not 1 single time did I catch quad aces w/kicker, only caught 2,3,4's w/kicker twice, never a royal. No question it was a bonehead move though and I deserve to be smacked around.

[ko king]

I have to say KO, I would have done the same thing in that situation. Reluctantly though. With the horrible streaks both you and I have gone through in the last few years, it is no wonder we are gun shy. Unfortunately, the math works over infinity. There is no guarantee it will work out on one's lifetime. I hope it does though for all of us. By the way, I hope we all have very long and good lifetimes. That way, we have a better chance of the math catching up to us.


Been doing fairly decent playing $1 DDB this year, not sitting the world on fire but surviving. After the last few years though I've become a bit more conservative with my play.

[ko king]

[QUOTE=ko king] Made another trip to the casino and like usual I was down from the start. The only thing different by this trip was I couldn't even hit a full house and had only 2 flushes playing $1 DDB, usually I'm getting a little play but this time I was already down $900. I switch to $1 TDB and lose another $200, not one single flush or full house did manage to catch a straight when I was ready to quit, last push I was dealt, "K,A,A,3,A". I know the correct hold was to keep the 3 but I was getting killed and the $800 would get ne back in the game. I throw away the 3 and first card on the deal was Ace, second card King. Take my $800 and quit for the day because I'm to mad at myself to continue.

100% I would have done the same thing. First off, the RNG is still spinning until you hit the draw button, so it's very unlikely you would have pulled the same card (Ace) if you held the kicker. Plus, like Tedlark said, there's another 11 kickers left in the deck, so the $4k pay out is still in play. Kickers are great, but you have to hit the quad first. How bad would you have felt if you ended up with just the $10 payout? Unless you're going to play millions and millions of hands you're never going to gain the long term benefit of holding the kicker (Quick Quad games excluded with certain hands). If my bankroll is endless, sure, why not hold the kicker. But most recreational players are trying to manage their bankroll per session. You ended up a few hundred down instead of over a grand. That's how I would view it. You lived to play another day.[/QUOTE]


Thank you for the kinds words. I'm about as recreational a player as there ever was, I like to kill a little time every once in a while, drink a few beers and try not to let the habit get to expensive, in years past I used to go for the gusto. Now if I get to play for a while and break even I consider that a victory, coming out ahead for the night is a bonus.

[ko king]

[QUOTE=damule] If my bankroll is endless, sure, why not hold the kicker. But most recreational players are trying to manage their bankroll per session. You ended up a few hundred down instead of over a grand. That's how I would view it. You lived to play another day.

But I can ask the reverse, if my bankroll is finite, why play TDB if I am NOT going to hold the kicker??? Anyone worried about bankroll preservation should usually be avoiding TDB and DDB. Bonus or Jacks are usually the best choices for bankroll preservation.



I think what people are trying to say in this thread is that if you're dealt AAA+kicker, but if your session is bad enough you'll get gunshy and just keep AAA, then why are you even playing TDB to begin with?

If there are circumstances where you're going to willingly pass up the correct play for more credits in favor of an incorrect play for a safer shot at less credits, then don't play TDB - just stick with DDB.

That's what I'm exactly trying to say. TDB is designed for extreme gamblers. You definitely shouldn't be gunshy. If you're not willing to gamble by holding the kicker, DDB is the better choice in virtually every casino nationwide.

in the scenario presented by the original poster, were the odds increased to essentially break even by drawing 1 or 2 cards?

gunshy or practical?

does theoretical always equate to reality?

Theory and reality can be way off in the short term...especially in games like TDB. But if your main goal of VP was to win or "essentially" break even the highest percentage of the time in sessions, then I wouldn't hold the kicker (assuming that any quad Aces made that said goal). But in that same vein, I would be playing DDB instead of TDB because both games would accomplish "my goal" and DDB pays 15 on trips versus 10!

But the casinos will thank you many times over for not holding the kicker at TDB. They have the bankroll not to be scared. They would have no qualms paying koking $4000 if he would held the kicker and he drew the case Ace. They will even congratulate him and be very cordial! And this goes for even dirt poor Tunica. I'm sure it hurt Tunica Roadhouse a bit to pay the dude I saw win $5000 last trip (biggest hit I have ever seen in my beloved flea bag casino), but they'll win it back real quick. For example the top grossing casinos in Missouri win $5000 from players every 12 MINUTES on average!!!

The casinos have faith in math as their livelihood depends on it, why doesn't the majority of the active members of this forum?[/QUOTE]

Watched a guy at Roadhouse playing $5 TDB at max coin about a month ago, I see him at Southland sometimes. I didn't check the pay tables for $5 TDB there but my guess is it would be 9/5. Roadhouse used to be my favorite casino but now I just stop by every so often to try my luck. About a month ago I stopped in and did pretty good playing $1 DDB, took $100 over to the $2 denomination TDB and hit quad aces w/kicker for $8K, I did hold the kicker that time.

[ko king]

You can hold what ever you want in any game. But if you want the best pay back you hold the correct cards. In Triple Bonus you hold the kicker with the 3 aces.

I have seen people dealt a full house with three aces in DDB and they kept the full house. Whatever floats your boat. Just don't complain how the games don't pay like they used to.

That's something I have never done, nor will I ever do, no matter how bad I'm getting my butt kicked.

[Lionqueen]

I realize the math but if I was having a bad night like yours and switched to TDB because I couldn't get anything on DDB I too would have thrown away the kicker. When you are losing like that it's unlikely with the RNG you would have drawn the other ace. I would have kicked myself more if I had held the 3 and drew an 8. I'm happy you got the $800.

[Tedlark]

First off - congrats ko, that's a TDB hit for sure.

Second - last night while playing 10 hand TDB here I was dealt trip aces with a 3 and junk for the fifth card. I only held the aces, hit deal and up popped 4,A. Got the 4,000 credits instead of the 10 I would have gotten on the hand if I had held the 3. To each their own...

[onemoretry]

. When you are losing like that it's unlikely with the RNG you would have drawn the other ace. It's also unlikely if you are winning - it's 1 in 47, whether you're up or down.

[alpax]

[QUOTE=Lionqueen]. When you are losing like that it's unlikely with the RNG you would have drawn the other ace. It's also unlikely if you are winning - it's 1 in 47, whether you're up or down.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that post, the spreading of misinformation needs to stop. Still cannot wrap my head around the perspective of the hybrid DDB/TDB players. It should be switching from TDB to DDB if the bankroll is running thin, DDB to TDB increases the chance of losing quicker. Going 20 hours without quad aces is entirely possible.

Second - last night while playing 10 hand TDB here I was dealt trip aces with a 3 and junk for the fifth card. I only held the aces, hit deal and up popped 4,A. Got the 4,000 credits instead of the 10 I would have gotten on the hand if I had held the 3. To each their own...

One thing I forgot to praise you all this time about playing 10 hands TDB is that it takes the high variance game into a low variance game like Bonus Poker (single line wagering at 10 fold stakes).

Congrats on the win, but 188 credits is too much for me to give up when the situation arises.

[Onenickelmiracl]

I always make the best play I'm aware of at least. As bad as it might have been, if you can't hold what you know is correct, you're probably playing over your bank roll. Nothing wrong with playing higher than is reasonable, but you have to know it. I really believe in the ten card deal theory, so yes you would have gotten it. Whatever increased pay table you're getting playing dollars, you're forfeiting.