Difference between a pro and recreational gambler

[notes1]

[QUOTE=misterlister] [QUOTE=Mr.Dawes]Actually, I emailed Bob Dancer with a video poker question once and he very politely answered my question and asked me for nothing in return. [/QUOTE]

I had a different experience. I asked him several questions after attending his class and purchasing his software, and he very politely said his services were at the rate of $250/hour.   [/QUOTE]Wow! His price went up. I had a similar experience with Mr. Dancer in 2009, but after I spent $400 for a 2-hour private conversation with him in my hotel room in Vegas. I e-mailed him with an observation and asked  for his comment. His response was and I quote:" If you wish to debate this in person at $200 an hour, let me know. Im not interested in an email pen pal. Sorry. Bob Dancer" .  I am a fairly well known expert in a non-gambling field and I dispense my advice freely and love to do it. If I answered any of them in the same manner Bob did, I'd have zero inquiries and my expertise wouldn't be worth a penny! [/QUOTE]
 i can hear the sounds of bubbles bursting from all those who are dancer idolizers. actually, i have more respect for the guy than i did before. he is one great salesman.   

[onemoretry]

I had a different experience. I asked him several questions after attending his class and purchasing his software, and he very politely said his services were at the rate of $250/hour.
Is it at all possible that he was reacting to the manner in which the questions were put to him?

[onemoretry]

omt, i/m/o, this is a flawed accounting system. one could delay realizing actual real dollar losses, as long as there are free play offers available.  even as a small time player, i have thousands of dollars of free play available at a variety of casinos, of which, i will never use 90% of those offers. but, using your system, as long as i have offers, i could use those 'potential' dollars to offset the loss of actual real money.  this subject came up because dancer stated he counted free play toward his net results. imagine, at the level he plays, the amount of free play he has available.  one might consider free play as a reward for paying at a casino, but it is also an enticement to return and lose even more money.
I'm starting to get a headache thinking about all this. I am not an accountant. I am an engineer, and I am not advocating an accounting system, I am simply setting out what seems logical to me. And, since having "free" play awarded and using it is better than not having it, it is, indeed, logical to acknowledge its value and include it somewhere in your results.

I agree with you that having thousands of dollars of free play available to you (how did you get that much?) is of no value unless you return to the casino to use it. But, if you do return and use it, your net result for that subsequent play is better by the amount of the free play.

If you always record your net results, the value of any free play you have been awarded and used is incorporated in those results. If that is what Bob Dancer is doing, what is wrong with that?

I agree that it would be misleading to report your net results over some period of time and then state that you had free play over and above that. To me, that would be counting the free play twice. Is that what you're getting at?

Are we OK with cashback?

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=onemoretry]And, since having "free" play awarded and using it is better than not
having it, it is, indeed, logical to acknowledge its value and include
it somewhere in your results. [/quote]Here's something to ponder.  I don't believe free play and non cash comps are subject to income tax.  At his level of play, this could make them more valuable than winning a jackpot requiring a W2G.

[FAA]

I don't believe free play and non cash comps are subject to income tax. 
At his level of play, this could make them more valuable than winning a
jackpot requiring a W2G.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Correctamundo. Some perks at his velocity.

[notes1]

 
I'm starting to get a headache thinking about all this. I am not an accountant. I am an engineer, and I am not advocating an accounting system, I am simply setting out what seems logical to me. And, since having "free" play awarded and using it is better than not having it, it is, indeed, logical to acknowledge its value and include it somewhere in your results.

I agree with you that having thousands of dollars of free play available to you (how did you get that much?) is of no value unless you return to the casino to use it. But, if you do return and use it, your net result for that subsequent play is better by the amount of the free play.

If you always record your net results, the value of any free play you have been awarded and used is incorporated in those results. If that is what Bob Dancer is doing, what is wrong with that?

I agree that it would be misleading to report your net results over some period of time and then state that you had free play over and above that. To me, that would be counting the free play twice. Is that what you're getting at?

Are we OK with cashback?

[/QUOTE]
 this discussion began because i questioned dancer counting free play as part of net results.  if you visit a casino a couple of times, it is common to receive a free play offer of maybe $50 good for one day and that offer might be available every other day for the month. fifteen days @$50, total free play $750 from one single casino. do this at a couple of casinos and you have thousands of dollars of free play offers. to take advantage of these offers, you must play and the casinos will cut you off, if you do not play well beyond the free play offer. the more you play, the more likely one is going to lose. cash back and free play are one and the same to me.   as far as getting a headache goes, you can include me. anyone who wishes, including the vegas guru, to convince themselves that they lost less of their own money, because on their next trip(s) they have access to free play offers, go right ahead. those who do this are simply kidding themselves.  when one leaves the casino, the difference between what real money they came with and how much real money they have after completing play, is their net result.

[notes1]

[quote=onemoretry]And, since having "free" play awarded and using it is better than not
having it, it is, indeed, logical to acknowledge its value and include
it somewhere in your results. Here's something to ponder.  I don't believe free play and non cash comps are subject to income tax.  At his level of play, this could make them more valuable than winning a jackpot requiring a W2G.




[/QUOTE]
 can you name me a utility company in florida that accepts a free play coupon as payment? 

[pokerforme]

I convert my freeplay into cash. Insert or download, play threw....cash out whatever you won---pay bills if its enough. In the beginning it was the first thing I would play and I considered it park of bankroll for that trip. Now I save it for last if I can and take whatever I win home.

[BobDancer]

A related topic is "appearance money." At Caesars Entertainment, and certain other places, I have often received offers where I get money to come in and play --- the most ever was $10,000. Usually less. Typically in the $2500 - $3500 range. It varies based on your "theoretical."The money is in the form of "reel rewards," which basically means you need to play it through at least once.In my case, I insert it at the beginning, recording its face value the same as cash given to me by the casino, and play however much I'm going to play. Almost always I play considerably more (if I didn't, I wouldn't receive such vouchers), but on occasion I have played it through once and cashed out.If I started with $2500. played some and ended up with $2300, my records would show they gave me $2500 and I lost $200 --- and the $2300 "net" would be winnings. If I started with $2500 and ended up losing all of that and $3000 more, I would record the $2500 as money they gave me and my loss as $5500. As is true for all of us, some days you have winnings. Some days you have losses.At the end of the year, the net winnings or net losses would be transcribed to my tax form.

[notes1]

I convert my freeplay into cash. Insert or download, play threw....cash out whatever you won---pay bills if its enough. In the beginning it was the first thing I would play and I considered it park of bankroll for that trip. Now I save it for last if I can and take whatever I win home.
 whether one uses free play at the beginning, middle or at the end is a personal decision. the point is that you did not count that free play offer as a cash win, until it had been played thru and you new the actual end result of playing the free offer.