Take a look at this...

[Tedlark]

  Burglar if video poker in Atlantic City is so bad have you ever thought about switching to roulette or craps?

[Vman96]

  Burglar if video poker in Atlantic City is so bad have you ever thought about switching to roulette or craps?

I'm dealing with the "craps rigged" argument on another gambling forum...lol I'm still in the 1.41% house edge for the pass line camp...haha

I would love to see this raw data, DaBurglar, by the way.

[shadowman]

If the casinos are breaking the law as suggested then non-disclosure agreements are worthless. Just thought that should be pointed out.

[DaBurglar]

Roulette is gay, and craps, while exciting and fun when you play as a group with people you know, can take a long time to win a lot of money unless you want to shoot the works on a couple of rolls.  And yes shadowman, if a law is clearly being broken, then so called non-disclosure agreements do not hold water....still, it is not that easy or clear cut in real life which I am sure you are smart enough to know, and people are sensitive to peer pressure as well as other kinds of pressure.  And it still doesnt prevent someone from being blackballed from an industry that is so obviously incestuous as the gaming industry, where everyone knows everyone else.  Here's my data from AC for the past 3 months or so: I've played at Resorts, Atlantic club, caesars, The Taj, SHowboat and Harrah's (a little)......this encompasses about 22 days total of VP, all at the 25 cent level, and the vast majority of hands are at 9/6 DB, 8/5 Bonus, and 9/6 JOB....spread out over a total of 9 different machines, 1 of which was a progressive (the 9/6 JOB).  55,167 total hands 65 quads (9 of which are A,2,3 or 4s) **this is about half the expected rate of quads** NO ROYALS 40,274 hands were complete and total busts, no value. 998 full houses (close to what you'd expect, within acceptable range) the rest of "winning hands", flushes, straights etc were well below expected rates....most winning hands were single pairs or two pairs. This sucks folks..... 

[DaBurglar]

In addition to my own data, I have also seen and even posted about other people's play, whom I know or play with as well.  It also has sucked....in fact, since last year, the ONLY real success I have witnessed in AC were several JOKER POKER machines being played by people I did not know.....certainly the only hand pays I witnessed were on Joker poker.... In between the data I referenced above, i also sporadically dabbled in other lesser stable, more fun games like dreamcard, a little 11/7 triple bonus poker, and goldmine bonus poker.  for the most part they sucked too but that is not something I'd make a case out of simply because of the volatile nature of the games. Look, I've already conceded many times that I really dont WANT to believe VP can be rigged, but reality screams otherwise.....and even if it is not rigged and this is just randomness, losing like this is NOT fun, so why on earth would we keep playing such crappy games?  seriously......

[Tedlark]

  Burglar, roulette is "gay"? Can you get any more offensive?

[feline57]

  Burglar, roulette is "gay"? Can you get any more offensive?
 Maybe he meant it like in the 'gay 90's' the 1890's that is not 1990's. Funny how the word used to mean happy or joyful.

[BillyJoe]

 
Here's my data from AC for the past 3 months or so:
 
I've played at Resorts, Atlantic club, caesars, The Taj, SHowboat and Harrahs (a little)......this encompasses about 22 days total of VP, all at the 25 cent level, and the vast majority of hands are at 9/6 DB, 8/5 Bonus, and 9/6 JOB....spread out over a total of 9 different machines, 1 of which was a progressive (the 9/6 JOB). 
 
55,167 total hands
 
65 quads (9 of which are A,2,3 or 4s) **this is about half the expected rate of quads**
 
NO ROYALS
 
40,274 hands were complete and total busts, no value.
 
998 full houses (close to what you'd expect, within acceptable range)
 
the rest of "winning hands", flushes, straights etc were well below expected rates....most winning hands were single pairs or two pairs.
 
This sucks folks.....
 
Wow - nice piece of record keeping, Burglar. But I notice that the data come from low volatility games. So I guess that you have an expectation of those games 'performing' in line with some expected number of quads, etc. Why do you think that? A quad is a quad, whether on JOB or TDB. I would think that you would have comparable holds, but maybe not.
 
As you know, I play the higher volatility games like TDB. I do not seem to be as 'quad or RF challenged' as you when I visit AC, playing mostly @ Caesars.
 
Maybe some higher volatility VP games would work better for you. Of course, watch your bankroll.  

[BillyJoe]

  Burglar, roulette is "gay"? Can you get any more offensive?
Maybe a gay Native American playing roulette ?

[Vman96]

A few questions: How did you collect this data? Did you write down the final result of every hand? Videotape it?

The biggest concern is the losing hand statistics, since it's nearly impossible to have that high of a losing rate over ~55k hands. I am going to run a 5000 session simulation of 55,167 hands each of 9/6 JoB over this and track quads, full houses, and losing hands. It'll probably take a few hours, but it will give a good idea of what we should expect. If I personally collected those statistics, I'd possibly be going to the gaming commission over it. What they would do, I have no idea, but NJ law does mandate random results.