What is the liklihood of Casino cheating at VP?

[olds442jetaway]

I don't want to get too specific. Let's just say I thought I was looking at my own statement only mine is a bit worse!

[DaBurglar]

the game is different, its that simple......aside from the HUGE difference I have spent my time detailing, the one between how Atlantic city Video poker operates versus how Nevada Vdeo Poker operates, the game of video poker in general has degenerated since 2007, the year when almost all casinos and gaming companies in the USA started to struggle mightily to make the profits they had come to expect in prior years.   It is no surprise that they started to get desperate, and its clear they have sought to keep their profits up by squeezing blood from stones like VP......there is no other way to look at it.  EVERYONE I KNOW PERSONALLY WHO PLAYS VIDEO POKER ON MORE THAN A CASUAL BASIS, about 22 people all totaled, none of them believe or have experienced that the game(s) today function or return anywhere near what they used to, say from the period 1998 thru 2005,  then 2006 thru 2009, and now 2010 to the present......there has been a stark and steep decline in the return percentages, and as it just so happens a huge decline in FUN and worthwhile experiences, over and thru these time periods.     Its sad, but also undeniable......and no amount of posturing or protesting by people with substantial investments in the whole concept of Video Poker, people such as BOB DANCER, or posters like Shadowman (currently residing in the WHERE IS HE NOW file?) will refute or change this fact.   A slot machine that is set to return 86% has, at its core, essentially the same random number generating software (RNG) as a Video Poker machine....RNGs are incredibly simple programs.      When a casino sets a slot machine to return 86% (or 87, or 90, or whatever.....),  the RNG interacts with other modifications and software to COMPILE and reconcile a final result the repeatedly, over time, works itself out to return whatever the casino wants, so think about that.......the result is RANDOM, but is clearly influenced and washed through whatever numerical level the casino wants.   Its random AND its rigged.....all slots are essentially "rigged", there is no denying this......so why is it so hard to accept or believe that this can, and does, happen even with plain old video poker?  Games such as Good times Pay, Super Times Pay and countless other gimmick VP games clearly have elements in their function that are rigged far beyond a simple RNG....everyone points out the obvious way(s) in which the vast majority of multipliers  TOTALLY miss the hands that win (or "pay") in such games, and even in the distribution of actual hand results, its clear to me that in games such as STP or GTP or most multi-line games, that the results from initial deals and subsequent draws is skewed from typical single line games.

[ko king]

I don't want to get too specific. Let's just say I thought I was looking at my own statement only mine is a bit worse!
There's really only three possibilities:
1) We're experiencing a long streak of bad luck.
2) All of the sudden we forgot how to play the game.
3) The game has changed.
 
 

[chucknorris5]

There are a number of troubling observations posted here regarding the credibility of lack thereof of casinos. However, I would think that eventually there would be a a disgruntled employee who would become a whistleblower about all of these misdeeds. Quite frankly, I would have thought it would have happened by now.

[ko king]

There are a number of troubling observations posted here regarding the credibility of lack thereof of casinos. However, I would think that eventually there would be a a disgruntled employee who would become a whistleblower about all of these misdeeds. Quite frankly, I would have thought it would have happened by now.
I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything but exactly what would they tell to whom, that people are losing money. The way I understand it every program that runs a vp machine has to be pre-approved, sealed and wrapped with a security strip so I doubt theres a casino anywhere that isn't following this law. Ya know I don't even think casinos can make changes to any machines without getting prior approval and I think there has to someone there to oversee the changes. If you stop and think about it what would a "disgruntled employee" stand to gain even if they had some type of inside information other than a huge headache and possibly worse. Quite frankly, I don't think there's much here to see other than some folks are losing money at casinos, that's what supposed to happen, maybe a little more than some of would like but it pretty much boils down to none of us are being forced to do it.

[chucknorris5]

History is full of former disgruntled employees who have nothing to lose and so they "spill the beans" about whatever they have knowledge about. In this case, a number of posters have opined that since 2010, there has been a significant drop in video poker pay offs even though the pay tables have remained the same. I am sure any major newspaper or cable news organization would salivate at publishing a story about casino cheating if such a whistle blower came forward with credible evidence. However, it has yet to happen and it may never happen if there is no cheating. You can seal, monitor, inspect all you want but if someone (a/k/a a casino), in this technology age, wants to cheat because there is great value in doing so, it is likely to happen. Ask Target.

[DaBurglar]

it is not that simple or straightforward......any employee likely to have solid irrefutable evidence of a casino actually "cheating" is most certainly of a level or position where he or she has signed the ubiquitous and standard CONFIDENTIALITY and NONDISCLOSURE regarding any and all business practices, and even the fact that the "cheating" would seem to fall outside the scope and providence of such agreements (which is not 100% clearcut in and of itself) is not sufficient for most people to take the next step and actually BLOW the whistle.     but forget all that....as someone already asked, what exactly would the whistle be here and how would it be blown?  what would be gained and lost?   Isnt it more than likely that such casino people are actually benefitting from the so called "cheating" to such an extent that they would be slitting their own throats, either professionally or financially or both?      Plus, the bottomline is this:  "cheating" in this case is extremely hard to prove or demonstrate even for people involved in it.....think about it for a minute.......its a moving target;  machines can be set, and then re-set, and then re-re-set, and back again and so forth.....monetary and financial records can be altered and hidden and distorted, OR....they can hide in plain sight, and a casino can simply say "Hey, thats the business we are in.....we are supposed to win LOTS of money from the people who play here...." Even more murky but no less possible is this fact:   Industries with high regulatory and self-monitoring requirements and institutions, industries such as the casino biz, are vital for the communities and governments within which they operate....the relationship is at times cozy, but always gives the impression of independence and integrity, but it is extremely unlikely that, if regulatory bodies like the Nevada Gaming commission, or New Jersey's or any other states, actually found a VP machine that was clearly "cheating", it is highly unlikely anyone would ever hear about it, nor would it lead to something like a casino being shutdown or anything like that.......worst case I can think of would be a discreet fine along with fixing the offending machines, thats it.    There is simply too much to be lost on all sides for a regulatory body to let it be known they found a casino actually cheating....they would handle such a thing, if it needed handling, with the utmost discretion as well as minimization possible.       Today's gaming comissions have much more serious issues to worry about and bigger fish to fry, and less and less resources with which to do the "worrying" and "frying"....

[Tedlark]

  DaBurglar I'm not jumping on you here but the have been many times in the past where you have talked about "casino people", cab drivers, and the like, sharing information with you.

  Also if there is a commission of a crime, a confidentiality or non-disclosure agreement could be null and void. Laws also offer a certain measure of protection to whistleblowers including employers acting in retribution against whistleblowers.

[jetermacaw]

I was at Caesars AC on 9/17 and a state inspector was there checking some new machines that they were getting  ready to be put into service. I asked him point blank what are the chances these machines aren't what they are suppose to be. He said and  i quote "zero", we inspect them them , we certify them and that's it. His opinion is that with the drop in play since the recession everything is relative, drop in play drop in winners. But the machines are what they are suppose to be.    

[BillyJoe]

if it exists (and I say "IF"), it would be at the IGT level. if a customer like CET orders VP machines a certain way, that is what they will deliver.