Turning $20 into $1,000 Again...

[ko king]

Took my weekly trip to the Tampa Hard Rock today.  I expected it to be crowded, but it was really nice.  Guess all the tourists went home for the holidays. As my bankroll continues to grow, I've been taking some small potshots on $5 machines.  Put in $20 and hit this about 4 hands in.  This is the third $1,000 single coin quad deuce I've hit in the last few months.  For you math guys $1,000 is the same as a quarter max coin Royal.  Too bad playing single coin is such a loser. 






First off congrats to you on not only this hit but your overall success, wish I could say the same. I've read many of the post made by yourself concerning single coin play and while I'm not quite ready to resort to playing like that I may be forced to. My only question is to why you would choose to play 1 coin at $5 denomination instead of playing max coins on a $1 denomination? I recall a conversation I had with a guy a while back before Harrahs closed down in this area. I didn't know the man very well but had seen him playing on different occasions, we had spoke a few times but no in depth conversations. Anyway, while I was playing $5 denomination DDB at max play he sat next to me and ask how I was doing. I told him I was doing bad and hadn't really had much luck in a great while playing $5 denom. The guy then pointed to what he thought the problem might be, another man and woman playing $5 denom DDB at the 1 credit level. His thoughts were that so many people had began to play single credit video poker that it was having some kind of effect on those of us who play max coins, his idea was that they are able to play longer and they're getting all the quality hits not leaving anything for max coin players. I pretty much told him that I wasn't sure but his and my results should be based solely on our play not others. I also said I didn't quite understand why anyone would choose to play $5 denom and only play 1 credit in the first place, why not play $1 denom at max, seems like the same difference, pay tables at that time were the same. I've even had casino employees tell me at different times to not play max coins, it never made any sense to me. Maybe you can explain it better to me, what is the advantage of playing single coin $5 vp over max $1 vp?

[FloridaPhil]

The reason I prefer to start with single coin $5 instead of max coin dollars is because I personally believe exiting the game, changing the denomination and reentering kills the streak.  If you believe these games are totally random it shouldn't make a difference, but time and time again this proves to be the case.  When playing the Cheap Strategy, the goal is to work your way up to a max coin quad deuce or royal and I want to hit a $5,000 quad deuce more than a $1,000 royal flush.   If you are never going to increase your bet, playing max coin dollars is the better choice as long as the pay schedules are the same.

[ko king]

The reason I prefer to start with single coin $5 instead of max coin dollars is because I personally believe exiting the game, changing the denomination and reentering kills the streak.  If you believe these games are totally random it shouldn't make a difference, but time and time again this proves to be the case.  When playing the Cheap Strategy, the goal is to work your way up to a max coin quad deuce or royal and I want to hit a $5,000 quad deuce more than a $1,000 royal flush.   If you are never going to increase your bet, playing max coin dollars is the better choice as long as the pay schedules are the same.











Phil, I'm not knocking the way you play in any way, if it works for you and maybe others I say great. As far as the games being totally random I'm not sure what to think anymore, there was a time when I would defend the games being totally random almost to the point of throwing punches, not anymore. Just because I'm curious, do you believe the game are completely random?

[FloridaPhil]

I used to, but I'm now wondering if there's something in the way the new chips work that is changing the playing field somewhat.  I don't think the long term payouts have changed, but I have noticed the following trends. Single coin seems to pay better than max coins, especially high limit slots.  I keep trying to dismiss this idea as crazy, but things keep happening that make me wonder. You will not notice this trend unless you play a lot of single coin like I do.Much longer dry spells.  Anyone who has played video poker for any length of time will probably agree with me on this.Jackpots are coming in groups over a shorter period of time.  It seems like there are two kinds of machines these days, totally dead and hot as a firecracker with nothing in between. These are my own personal observations and everyone sees things differently. I don't think there is any huge conspiracy going on here, but I do think the games play differently than they used to.

[ko king]

I used to, but I'm now wondering if there's something in the way the new chips work that is changing the playing field somewhat.  I don't think the long term payouts have changed, but I have noticed the following trends. Single coin seems to pay better than max coins, especially high limit slots.  I keep trying to dismiss this idea as crazy, but things keep happening that make me wonder. You will not notice this trend unless you play a lot of single coin like I do.Much longer dry spells.  Anyone who has played video poker for any length of time will probably agree with me on this.Jackpots are coming in groups over a shorter period of time.  It seems like there are two kinds of machines these days, totally dead and hot as a firecracker with nothing in between. These are my own personal observations and everyone sees things differently. I don't think there is any huge conspiracy going on here, but I do think the games play differently than they used to.

If I had just begun playing a few years ago I wouldn't know any better but that's not the case. I've played the same exact game for over 20 years now so I got to know the game pretty well, plenty of ups and downs but nothing to be concerned about. The last few years have me at a loss, it's just not the same, no two ways about it. I can still find the older style machines at a casino close to me and it's where I spend most of my time playing. The machines aren't in the best of shape and the pay tables aren't so great but it's still old school video poker, something I recognize and love. Now this same casino brought in 6 of the new style machines, same games and pay tables as the 12 older style vp machines they have. I've spent a great deal of time playing the new games there and fact is that they're tougher on the wallet, the quality hands just don't show up like they do on the older style machines. Another case in point was the Roadhouse casino in Tunica, it used to be my favorite place to play before they took out all the old style vp machines and replaced them with the dreaded new games. I continued to try and play there but the games were just to darn aggressive, same games, same pay tables but the hits quit coming like they used to, I quit going there. In my mind there is NO QUESTION that something is different, I've heard mention of a new "hyper RNG" possibly making the game different. I don't know if that's the case but id so my question would be, who ask for this change, sure wasn't the players who play the games and who is this technology supposed to benefit? If the games we played a few years back were totally random and fair like so many on this site have pretty much guaranteed how can they still be totally random and fair if they changed the totally random process, I thought random was random, I had no idea there were different levels of randomness. It does seem if the new "hyper RNG's" do indeed exist the casino industry has convinced the gaming commissions everywhere that there are different types of randomness, no doubt to benefit themselves because their main objective is to make money. The dry spells on the new style machines are unbearable for players like myself, it's either stick to where you can still find the older games or just quit playing. My feeling is that most casinos could care less about players like myself, they want us to quit or continue chasing what we once knew and understood until they bleed us of every dollar they can get from us, that is if we're dumb enough not to adapt to the changes they obviously made (my opinion). Either way I stick to my question as to who ask for the changes and who are the changes supposed to benefit?

[notes1]

i always enjoy KK's posts. starting with the question you ask at the end, if there are changes, they were most certainly requested by the casinos and for one reason, to benefit the casinos. isn't possible that the changes many of us have noticed is just a pure business decision, by the casinos? fewer/same number of players, more casinos/competition, casino costs rise like every business, governments want more and more, shareholders want their cut, etc. only one solution, get more money from each player.    i would guess casino operators were reluctant to cut paytables, introduce software that reduced the payouts, reduce comps or any other legal measure they could to be more profitable. but, they had to and guess what, people complain and they keep coming in.  they found out they could get away with it, because if every casino does the same, what is the player going to do.  so, we adjust our play in one way or another and the game continues between the player and the casino. there is one thing for sure, the casino will not lose or they will be out of business.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=notes1]so, we adjust our play in one way or another and the game continues between the player and the casino.[/quote] Whatever the reason for the change, the way I see it is to adjust your play to fit the new playing field whatever that is. For me, it means playing more single coin and betting big when the jackpots start their run.  I'm not betting the farm on my  video poker play, so we'll see what happens.  So far, I like the results.

[ko king]

i always enjoy KK's posts. starting with the question you ask at the end, if there are changes, they were most certainly requested by the casinos and for one reason, to benefit the casinos. isn't possible that the changes many of us have noticed is just a pure business decision, by the casinos? fewer/same number of players, more casinos/competition, casino costs rise like every business, governments want more and more, shareholders want their cut, etc. only one solution, get more money from each player.   Â i would guess casino operators were reluctant to cut paytables, introduce software that reduced the payouts, reduce comps or any other legal measure they could to be more profitable. but, they had to and guess what, people complain and they keep coming in.  they found out they could get away with it, because if every casino does the same, what is the player going to do.  so, we adjust our play in one way or another and the game continues between the player and the casino. there is one thing for sure, the casino will not lose or they will be out of business.

Thank you very much notes, it's kinda nice to know someone actually takes the time to read my rants. I start out trying to make my point and keep it short and sweet but sometimes I just get lost and start to ramble on, like now. Let me get straight to the point and introduce the meaning of "random".

{1. proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers.}

For years I and I'll assume many others thought that definition suited the game of video poker well, most of us believed or accepted that's exactly what kept the game fair and fun for all, especially those that understood what an "RNG" was. With the said I will admit even before the game seems to have changed I still lost money, I was supposed to, the only thing offered around these parts are negative expectation pay tables, the laws in this area govern against positive expectation pay tables. I took the time to learn the game I liked so I could minimize my losses and that's exactly what happened, I controlled my losses playing close to the pay tables year after year. I even had a year or maybe two that I finished ahead for the year. During the last few years I can't even come close to the advertised pay tables, it's always 3-4 percentage points lower that the expected outcome. There's little doubt in my mind that whatever the gaming manufactures and casinos have done is perfectly legal under state gaming laws, but I also have little to no doubt that they bent and deformed the definition of the word "random" for the benefit of them selves. Make no mistake if there indeed has been a "hyper RNG" introduced, gaming commissions everywhere were informed and convinced to accept the change under the pretense that the change would offer a "more random" event. Once again I'll make the point "random" is "random", there is no such a thing as "more random" or "less random". In my opinion if the Gaming Commission was truly watching out for the players any changes being ask for to a game that was considered to be "random" for many years should have been met with several questions, one of which would have been, "are you saying the games weren't "really random" in the first place?". Like any big corporation worth it's weight in sand they will always be looking for ways to maintain or increase their profits margins. There are simple ways to decrease operating cost and there are more complex and questionable ways to achieve their goal, which include ways to bend, stretch and change existing regulations and laws. "Hyper RNG" sounds cool and more up to date, no doubt the players will love it.................NOT!


Notes you seem to get it, you understand. These casinos are nothing more than corporations searching for ways to maintain or increase profit margins in a market that has seen a decrease in the amount of players due to competition and a downturn in the economy. But let's not kid ourselves when it comes time for all concerned parties (casinos, manufactures, programmers and gaming commissions) to sit down at the table and discuss the issues there is zero doubt what side of the table the really smart guys and gals will be sitting on. I highly doubt there has ever been a discussion about ways to increase pay outs to players, the talks will always be about dollars and what is accepted to be fair. The casinos will do what ever they need to do in order to operate and the gaming commissions will accept and endorse those changes in order to keep the dollars rolling, "in the players best interest" probably isn't real high up on their wish list. I'm going to go with what I've grown to know and understand when it comes to todays corporate ideals and models, "what is the least we can provide to customers and still maintain a respectable profit margin".

[notes1]

KK, thanks for the kind words and i meant it when i said i always enjoyed your posts. i think the first mistake that many have made is ever believing that casinos, were their friends. casinos are like every other business, they need to make a profit to exist. nothing wrong with that, it is capitalism. will they stretch the law, yes, but folks forget companies need to make a profit to pay workers their salary, their SS taxes, their health insurance, their matching 401k, etc. casinos are no different. i think a good way to look at it, is to examine how government regulators dealt with the banks, as a result of the financial crisis. i know most hate the banks and i am not defending them. but, the same folks who were regulating before the crisis, declared they were going to come to the rescue and regulate them after the crisis. the same exact regulators who helped get us in the mess, were there to save us. so, how did they save 'us', they lent money to the banks at near 0% interest,and who really paid, all the savers of the world. and, the savers are still paying. only the 'investors' have made out. why do i bring this up, the same regulators who are supposed to be looking out for the casino gamblers, also get their income from the taxes/fees that casinos pay. are they going to bite the hand tha feeds them. if a casino is having financial trouble, due to the economy and they ask the regulators if the can introduce some new way of shuffling cards, that somehow meets existing legal standards and it will help the casinos stay in business and pay those taxes, what do we expect the regulators to do. you have been consistent. something has changed, it is likely legal, but you do not know what it is. i agree. 

[FAA]

I think Phil has a good theory. Smell a run materializing and bump up the betting. Don't be cheap and get lulled into okay wins on a streak when they could be extraordinary wins. This allows you to leave the casino to lunch, shop, stroll and generally escape such a risky environment.