How big is the cheating? (RNG spinoff)

[davidearl]

Well, there's some machines that I will not play. There's some games that I will not play with a card.

First, the machines up front, across from the Player's Club. They have 99.96% Dbl Dbl Bonus, just like some of the other games, but they don't play the same. I stopped playing those machines, after not getting a quad in 5 hours. I had been tracking my "free play" for 11 years. I played a monetary progression. Up to 10 spins @ a quarter/5 coin. Same at 50 cents. $1.00 until I got a win. Then go back to quarters. A win being 3 of a kind or better. Sometimes I would go 3 or 4 hours without so much as a dealt 3 of a kind. Odds of that are suspect.

After 11 years, my Freeplay was a plus 8%. After they put the new machines in, I played them for about a year. When I noticed my free play was now minus 8% for 12 years, I stopped playing those machines.

When playing without a card, I've seen some things that I never noticed before. I've seen machines next to me rebooting, one at a time. This suggests that they are connected to a mainframe. Also at bar 4, there was a worker working on a machine near me. When they finished, a guy playing next to me, moved over to play it. It wouldn't take his ticket, so he put in some cash, and started playing. When he cashed out, no ticket! It said, hand pay! A $20.50 hand pay. They came and said "Since it's a hand pay, I need to see some ID." He said, "50 cents is not a hand pay" and walked away. I saw him later @ bar 3. He said, " They just wanted to see who I was, they don't know who a lot of people are, with masks on."

[wildman49]

Well, there's some machines that I will not play. There's some games that I will not play with a card.

First, the machines up front, across from the Player's Club. They have 99.96% Dbl Dbl Bonus, just like some of the other games, but they don't play the same. I stopped playing those machines, after not getting a quad in 5 hours. I had been tracking my "free play" for 11 years. I played a monetary progression. Up to 10 spins @ a quarter/5 coin. Same at 50 cents. $1.00 until I got a win. Then go back to quarters. A win being 3 of a kind or better. Sometimes I would go 3 or 4 hours without so much as a dealt 3 of a kind. Odds of that are suspect.

After 11 years, my Freeplay was a plus 8%. After they put the new machines in, I played them for about a year. When I noticed my free play was now minus 8% for 12 years, I stopped playing those machines.

When playing without a card, I've seen some things that I never noticed before. I've seen machines next to me rebooting, one at a time. This suggests that they are connected to a mainframe. Also at bar 4, there was a worker working on a machine near me. When they finished, a guy playing next to me, moved over to play it. It wouldn't take his ticket, so he put in some cash, and started playing. When he cashed out, no ticket! It said, hand pay! A $20.50 hand pay. They came and said "Since it's a hand pay, I need to see some ID." He said, "50 cents is not a hand pay" and walked away. I saw him later @ bar 3. He said, " They just wanted to see who I was, they don't know who a lot of people are, with masks on."

There you have it, you have 3 VP players at the same casino saying things just not right. David, Tech, and myself.

I know the machines your speaking of, next gen machines up front. They will wipe you out in a hurry. More dead hands then you have ever seen. All games 99% plus but good luck getting close. I have had 2 royals on them, it's not the royals that's the problem, there is no play before or after the royals. I stay away as well.

[wildman49]

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After 11 years, my Freeplay was a plus 8%. After they put the new machines in, I played them for about a year. When I noticed my free play was now minus 8% for 12 years, I stopped playing those machines.

I tracked my play on the 10 coin next gen machines they put in. Over 14 months I was getting killed on them. Hit royals no problem, 4ok rare and stopped playing them long ago. Would drop $400 an hour on 9/6 jacks 10 quarters a pull. I said it before I will say it again, IGT can say what they want but them new machines don't play or pay anything close to the old ones.


Last night I took a ride to the slot palace, it's a bingo hall across the street, half has slots. Been a while and forgot about these last up rights left. Now I played these machines for years on and off and always played fair. Then about 3-4 years ago they reprogrammed them to add Keno. Keno at the $1 demon. no other. After that they became unplayable. They now sit empty all the time.

[wildman49]

Davidearl:I've seen some things that I never noticed before. I've seen machines next to me rebooting, one at a time. This suggests that they are connected to a mainframe.

They are running off a central server.

[dinghy]

I said it before I will say it again, IGT can say what they want but them new machines don't play or pay anything close to the old ones.

Sometimes I would go 3 or 4 hours without so much as a dealt 3 of a kind. Odds of that are suspect.

Odds of that are impossible, unless you play at a glacial pace. On a fair game, you're 1 in 35 to be dealt triplets or better.

But the good news is you achieved 108% return for an 11 year span before the machines changed. 11 years should be a definitively long time, although you only tracked results when using free play.

Wildman, in the other thread you indicated some impressive results because you know which machines play fair. In my mind, a fair 99.5% game would pay 99.5%. And of course an unfair 99.5% game would pay less than 99.5%. Sounds like you've found a way to exceed the posted payback -- in which case the game would be fairer than fair.

[wildman49]

Wildman, in the other thread you indicated some impressive results because you know which machines play fair. In my mind, a fair 99.5% game would pay 99.5%. And of course an unfair 99.5% game would pay less than 99.5%. Sounds like you've found a way to exceed the posted payback -- in which case the game would be fairer than fair.

Yes, on machine play alone no free play added in I am over 100% so far this year. But it's early, 8 months to go.

You play in Vegas correct?

[dinghy]

You play in Vegas correct?

Yes, primarily. I've played throughout Nevada, and in other states but not lately.

You may have seen recent allegations about unfairness of Vegas games. Just a little down the page here in the Strategy subforum, someone says he loses rapidly every single time he plays, and the same thing happens to all his friends, and the machines didn't used to be like that.

I don't have anything very interesting to report from my own experiences. Sometimes my results are bumpy, but they're approximately as bumpy as the math says they should be. My payback fluctuates above and below theoretical.

Nevada is prominently regulated, but that's not by my choice. I'm sure the regulators provide some measure of benefit, but I doubt the benefit is worth the cost.

[wildman49]

You may have seen recent allegations about unfairness of Vegas games. Just a little down the page here in the Strategy subforum, someone says he loses rapidly every single time he plays, and the same thing happens to all his friends, and the machines didn't used to be like that.

I watch a whole lot of poker play on youtube and most of it is Vegas VP. They might put in $1000 play 25 bucks a hand and play and play and play cash out near even. I don't play at that level but I can drop 400-500 an hour on 9/6 jacks at 5 bucks a hand. I don't understand why many on these videos don't go bust more often. I am sure it's all edited and or don't show a whole lot of bad play since people don't want to sit and see that, they want to see hits.

Playing at an Indian casino with no state reg. and see 3 people talk about how play varies from bank to bank of machines, it sucks to have to play so defensive when one should be able to sit down and play with no issues.

[dinghy]

I watch a whole lot of poker play on youtube and most of it is Vegas VP. They might put in $1000 play 25 bucks a hand and play and play and play cash out near even.

That's not very normal. If I watch any gambling on youtube it's usually slots, but I think it's very common to exclude some of the deader results -- except on a live stream.

For a typical hour of 9/6 jacks play, I'm usually somewhere within sight of 97%. Because I probably won't hit a royal (2%) or straight flush (0.5%), and the house edge is 0.5%. That's a $150 loss on a fast machine. But I do on occasion lose 400-500 in one hour of action. I've probably dumped around 1000 at my worst.

Playing at an Indian casino with no state reg. and see 3 people talk about how play varies from bank to bank of machines, it sucks to have to play so defensive when one should be able to sit down and play with no issues.

No doubt, but we do have similar assertions about state-regulated jurisdictions. Gamblers toss around a lot of complaints, and the credible allegations sometimes get lost in the noise.

[tech58]

dinghy, do vegas players ever talk about contacting regulators for info. ? Any reports available?
Or are they inaccessible, similar to Indian Gaming Regulatory Commission, and Bureau of Indian Affairs?