How Are The Programs Made?

[b74]

Ok, I understand the whole RNG thing.  How does my Frugal VP software work? It doesn't have a RNG right? If not then "it" can be beat (mastered)over time unlike the RNG in each casino game. 

[Webman]

Almost all programming languages have a random number generator to generate a random number between 0 and 1 (or any two numbers) and that is usually what is used to determine the order of the cards in the deck or on a draw. While these RNG's are not perfect, they would be very difficult to "master" in any way. Even using a basic rand() function would be sufficient in most cases, but there are slightly more complex ways of generating a good random number as well that make predicting the next number that will appear virtually impossible.

[cddenver]

Ok, I understand the whole RNG thing.  How does my Frugal VP software work? It doesn't have a RNG right? If not then "it" can be beat (mastered)over time unlike the RNG in each casino game. 


 
I don't have Frugal VP, but as a simulation/training tool it would have an RNG.

[New2vp]

I cannot see where Frugal discusses its RNG extensively, but in the Help section, the following is stated:  "Frugal Video Poker has evaluated many RNGs, but to be honest, we have no idea what the algorithms are in an actual casino machine. We hope, but do not guarantee, that ours is the best available."The programming of Frugal was handled by James Wolf who later developed Wolf Video Poker.  The latter gives the user a choice of RNGs between the rand() function, Mersenne Twister, Mother-of-all, RANROT-B, and RANROT-W, plus it allows the user to push a button to reseed the series of random numbers by the press of a button during play.It's just a guess on my part, but it's a good possibility that Frugal uses one of the above RNGs.  I understand that all of these are based on the theory that that there is an equal probability of any 5 cards appearing on any given deal,
and that the same equal probability occurs for any card substitutions on the draw.  I believe that Frugal's replacement cards are "dealt" from the top of the deck rather than based on a continuous reshuffling until the draw button is pressed.But even some of the simplest RNGs use 32 bits with 4 billion or more starting points (2^32), so it would be a difficult task to determine the next group of cards from a recent series of cards.  In addition to the determination of the random number, one would also need to know exactly how the software assigns one of the 52 (or more with jokers) cards given the particular number selected by the RNG at a particular point in the series.  As stated by Webman, that is probably not a good recipe for "beating" a machine.

[Webman]

This all sounds really complicated, and the information is great for people who are interested in it. But in the end, the concept is simple:An RNG simply picks random numbers and displays cards associated with those numbers. And an RNG is not difficult technology to apply... it is built into every programming language out there.So there is no reason to assume that the RNG on Frugal or any other software is less than adequate for practice. And if you do have a mind that can detect the sequences that these programs are running and "beat" a free game... well, you should be making a whole lot of money right now doing something with numbers.

[oej719]

This all sounds really complicated, and the information is great for people who are interested in it. But in the end, the concept is simple:An RNG simply picks random numbers and displays cards associated with those numbers. And an RNG is not difficult technology to apply... it is built into every programming language out there.So there is no reason to assume that the RNG on Frugal or any other software is less than adequate for practice. And if you do have a mind that can detect the sequences that these programs are running and "beat" a free game... well, you should be making a whole lot of money right now doing something with numbers.


Elaborate!

[cddenver]

Elaborate!
 

 
While the developers of simulations like VP Frugal want their software to operate in a random fashion, there isn't any particular pressure on them to make it as random as they possibly can since no money is involved - they're training tools, after all.  So if I heard that there were detectable card patterns coming up that allowed players to beat the simulation I wouldn't be greatly surprised.
 
If they were to start some sort of marketing campaign where they were to offer a cash prize of $5,000 to anyone who could demonstrate detectable patterns or biases in card values then the situation would be different.  In that case they'd certainly take additional steps in randominization, like having the RNG run continuously, and changing card assignments during play.

[oej719]

Elaborate some more!!!

You got me all worried now. I thought I had pattern recognition down pat, now you throw this on me.
Oh my!

[b74]

I by no means ever thought that I could beat it, maybe a vp2 could. I was just curious if it was possible.  The main thing I get out of it is the corrections when I make an error. I like the create a hand feature too.