favorite video poker game & why

[BillyJoe]

I have no problem if Billie Joe wants to play high variance games where the house has the edge. If he has the wealth to lose tens of thousands of dollars a year to casinos --- and he enjoys the process --- then let him have his fun! He's actually doing me a favor by playing this way.
 
Casinos need players who are willing and able to lose money! Billy Joe happens to be one of them. We need more people like that! When casinos have enough of these players, they can afford to support me and the rest of you who are trying to eke out a living from the casinos. But without the losers, casinos will tighten up and eliminate the winners as well.
 
Billy Joe called what I do "work." He's exactly right. My mind is totally engaged in seeking out advantages and then trying to exploit them. I find the process of beating casinos psychically rewarding. It gives me great pleasure to beat the game when the other guy sets the rules.
 
Billy Joe has other ways to make money. Good for him! A number of people are struggling financially but apparently Billy Joe isn't. My hat is off to him, but I don't have such a way.
 
Bob
 
 
Who ever said that I was a money loser at VP?
 
An assumption on your part, my dear Bob, probably based on the games that I choose to play. Remember my Win/Loss stops? Just because I said that I could not make a living playing VP doesn't mean that I lose money every year. And, yes, I measure success at casino gaming on a yearly basis, not session, daily or trip. I just don't believe that I could make ENOUGH money every year playing VP to keep Mrs BillyJoe in the lifestyle to which she has become accustomed.  
 
Incidentally, I worked for and earned every dime that I have - no inheritance, lottery winnings, etc. Isn't this a GREAT country?
 
So, thankfully Bob, you will have to look elsewhere for your " players who are willing and able to lose money" to fund your  'job'.  Your statement "Billy Joe happens to be one of them" is just incorrect.    
 
I hope I don't sound too much like BackSider now..

[OTABILL]

Unless you are playing VP for a living (aka - WORK ), I subscribe to the notion of playing a fun game, even though the variance may be high, and have a win/loss 'walk away' point for your session or visit. I like to have a good time playing VP - that's why I play.
 
Sure, I like to win, and I guess playing 4 hours and winning $10 makes better financial sense than playing 2 hours and losing $1,000. But if my only reason for playing in a casino was to reap financial rewards, I would never go. There are better, easier ways to just make money than trying to beat a casino.  
 Agree although my wife and I don't frequent the high limit area.  For Bob: As I explained in a series of back and forth posts with Frank months ago, I always go back to John Scarne's words in his Complete Guide to Gambling that one should view gambling as a form of entertainment, budget accordingly and figure you will lose your bankroll most of the time. If you win, it's a bonus. Some folks spend their entertainment dollars on golf, the theater, concerts, skiing, gourmet restaurants, and sporting events etc. We enjoy DDB. Don't like most other variations of VP (except TDB at times). One doesn't come home with more money from any of those activities than with what you had beforehand. VP is the one activity that gives us a chance to "profit financially" on occasion from a recreational activity.  

[Lucky Larry]

Phil,
We bankroll almost exactly alike and we play for the pleasure, to keep up our mental faculties and to have some control versus slots. Also, occasionally its profitable. Life is too short not to learn to enjoy and for us VP is one of those joys.

Otabill,
Playing VP can be cheaper than going to watch pro-sporting events in Houston. Plus, we get a nice room, meals, tickets to nice entertainment, and an opportunity to make lots of new friends. Guess we'll keep playing for a while.

[FloridaPhil]

I agree totally.  This idea that you can make money at video poker is totally unrealistic for the vast majority of players.   Thanking people for playing poorly so you can profit, seems unprofessional to me and frankly a bit ridiculous when you are making your living promoting the game.   Hey, but what do I know?  I'm just another quarter recreational player feeding the process. 

[BobDancer]

[QUOTE=billyjoe 
 
An assumption on your part, my dear Bob, probably based on the games that I choose to play. Remember my Win/Loss stops?  QUOTE=billyjoe]
  You're right. I was assuming you were a losing player. On occasion TDB (in it's 9/7 version) has a high enough slot club and promotions to go along with it that it can be positive. But not that often. Perhaps I'm confusing you with somebody else but I thought you said you were Seven Stars at Harrah's/Caesars. Other than for dollars at Harrah's St. Louis, I've never seen 9/7 TDB at a Harrah's casino. And it would be rare indeed if a dollar player made Seven Stars. It appeared from other posts that you preferred 9/7 TDB, but if the best you could find was 9/6 or 9/5 TDB, you'd play that rather than play another form of video poker. If I do indeed understand what you play correctly, then the odds are very high that you're a losing player. Win/Loss stops have nothing to do with the overall return of the game. You can't use money management systems to outfox playing a losing game. (I don't know what backsider would say about this but Fa la la la la... la la la... la. definitely promotes a money management system which professional players believe is nonsense.) I've never seen records of your play. As far as I know I haven't met you (although many people have taken my classes and I don't remember all their names by any means.)  I have no knowledge of your actual results. And I am certainly not in position to call you a liar when you say you're a winning player. And it is definitely possible that I'm confusing what you said you played with somebody else. But I can say that well over 99% of players who play like I think you do lose money at the game. As I said in my last post, I have no beef with you. If this is how you wish to spend/add to your money, good for you. Bob

[BillyJoe]

 
You're right. I was assuming you were a losing player. On occasion TDB (in it's 9/7 version) has a high enough slot club and promotions to go along with it that it can be positive. But not that often.
 
Perhaps I'm confusing you with somebody else but I thought you said you were Seven Stars at Harrah's/Caesars. Other than for dollars at Harrah's St. Louis, I've never seen 9/7 TDB at a Harrahs casino. And it would be rare indeed if a dollar player made Seven Stars.
 
I just played  $1 9/7 TDB @ Caesars AC last month, as a Seven Star. In Vegas, Aria has $1 9/7 TDB right outside of their Hi Limit area  Maybe you should get out more.
 
It appeared from other posts that you preferred 9/7 TDB, but if the best you could find was 9/6 or 9/5 TDB, you'd play that rather than play another form of video poker.
 
Not true. While I do prefer TDB, if there are other games available with significantly better return opportunities, that is what I will play. But I do not worry about a 0.5% difference in return, if that is all a different game presents. I do not play enough hands for it to be significant.  
 
If I do indeed understand what you play correctly, then the odds are very high that you're a losing player. Win/Loss stops have nothing to do with the overall return of the game. You can't use money management systems to outfox playing a losing game. (I don't know what backsider would say about this but Fa la la la la... la la la... la. definitely promotes a money management system which professional players believe is nonsense.)
 
I would suggest that you 'professional' players be more open minded to a money management system, which is the ONLY way that I have found, as a recreational player, to enable me to be slightly profitable, or at least break even, at VP. This allows the comps that I receive to work their magic for a good time.  
 
I've never seen records of your play. As far as I know I haven't met you (although many people have taken my classes and I don't remember all their names by any means.)  I have no knowledge of your actual results. And I am certainly not in position to call you a liar when you say you're a winning player. And it is definitely possible that I'm confusing what you said you played with somebody else.
 
When you have no knowledge of someone's results, you have no right to call anybody anything!
 
But I can say that well over 99% of players who play like I think you do lose money at the game.
 
As I said in my last post, I have no beef with you. If this is how you wish to spend/add to your money, good for you.
 
Bob 
 
In closing, Bob, all I can say is that you have turned into one arrogant AZZ since I met you two years ago at the first VP.COM Meet and Greet in Vegas. You may understand VP, but you do not understand 'class'. No apology or retraction from you for calling me a  'loser of tens of thousand of dollars a year" on a public Forum with absolutely no evidence to support it.
 
The sum total of your advice seems to be to run from casino to casino to find the best paytable. I don't need to attend your class to know that, and I doubt that many others on this site would either. If that makes you "Americas Top VP Expert", as your caption says under your picture in VPW, then good for you. For me, I'll take the next guy in line.   
 
In spite of that, I wish you the best of luck with your casino play and other endeavors. If you treat people like this, you are going to need it.   

[BobDancer]

[QUOTE=billyjoe
 
In closing, Bob, all I can say is that you have turned into one arrogant AZZ since I met you two years ago at the first VP.COM Meet and Greet in Vegas. You may understand VP, but you do not understand 'class'. No apology or retraction from you for calling me a  'loser of tens of thousand of dollars a year" on a public Forum with absolutely no evidence to support it.
 
The sum total of your advice seems to be to run from casino to casino to find the best paytable. I don't need to attend your class to know that, and I doubt that many others on this site would either. If that makes you "Americas Top VP Expert", as your caption says under your picture in VPW, then good for you. For me, I'll take the next guy in line.    
i guess I won't be getting a Christmas card from BillyJoe.But actually I have a lot of "evidence" based on what he has claimed. He claims he is Seven Stars as well as Noir, and mostly keeps to a $2000 win/$1000 loss system and mostly plays TDB. This simply does not compute. To reach the lowest level of Seven Stars you need to play $83K a month. While technically possible to play this much on a $1 machine, it is unlikely for a recreational player. So lets look at what results he'd have playing $1 Five Play 9/6 TDB for $27800K for his one third of his monthly play, assuming he is going to stop after losing $1000 or getting ahead $2000. I ran Video Poker for Winners for this amount --- which assumes he divides up his play over three weekends a month. The chances of him making $2000 or more came out to be 16% rounded. The chances of him losing $1000 and stopping before he reached $27800 coin in was 82% rounded. The chance of him making it all the way was 1.41%. And he has to do this a total of 36 separate times to earn Seven Stars. So that 1.41% times 1.41% times . . . times 1.41% thirty six times = virtually impossible. Anybody with access to VPW can duplicate these numbers. Add to this the fact that with a loss limit of $1000 each time, the casinos give him RFB PLUS airfare. This is a MUCH better deal than any of the rest of us can get. Casinos grant such benefits only for people whose expected loss is considerably more than $1000. There will be times on that game where he loses $1000 after only $5000 of coin in. (That game is UGLY when you aren't hitting quads.)  I didn't make any of the up, BillyJoe. I'm quoting you. Simply put, your story is not believeable. If it makes you feel better to call me names, go ahead. But that doesn't change the fact that you are trying to spin a tale here that does not compute. Playing that much on that game, it is very common to lose tens of thousands of dollars a year. Some years many tens of thousands. It is essentially impossible to be a winner at that game.  I'm not sure what you want me to apologize for. I used your numbers and found out where they led. If this makes me an AZZ with no class, so be it. Bob  

[BillyJoe]

[QUOTE=billy joe
 
In closing, Bob, all I can say is that you have turned into one arrogant AZZ since I met you two years ago at the first VP.COM Meet and Greet in Vegas. You may understand VP, but you do not understand 'class'. No apology or retraction from you for calling me a  'loser of tens of thousand of dollars a year" on a public Forum with absolutely no evidence to support it.
 
The sum total of your advice seems to be to run from casino to casino to find the best pay table. I don't need to attend your class to know that, and I doubt that many others on this site would either. If that makes you "Americas Top VP Expert", as your caption says under your picture in VPW, then good for you. For me, I'll take the next guy in line.    

i guess I won't be getting a Christmas card from Billy Joe.

But actually I have a lot of "evidence" based on what he has claimed. He claims he is Seven Stars as well as Noir, and mostly keeps to a $2000 win/$1000 loss system and mostly plays TDB. This simply does not compute.
 
To reach the lowest level of Seven Stars you need to play $83K a month. While technically possible to play this much on a $1 machine, it is unlikely for a recreational player.
 
So lets look at what results he'd have playing $1 Five Play 9/6 TDB for $27800K for his one third of his monthly play, assuming he is going to stop after losing $1000 or getting ahead $2000.
 
I ran Video Poker for Winners for this amount --- which assumes he divides up his play over three weekends a month. The chances of him making $2000 or more came out to be 16% rounded. The chances of him losing $1000 and stopping before he reached $27800 coin in was 82% rounded. The chance of him making it all the way was 1.41%. And he has to do this a total of 36 separate times to earn Seven Stars. So that 1.41% times 1.41% times . . . times 1.41% thirty six times = virtually impossible. Anybody with access to VPW can duplicate these numbers.
 
Add to this the fact that with a loss limit of $1000 each time, the casinos give him RFB PLUS airfare. This is a MUCH better deal than any of the rest of us can get. Casinos grant such benefits only for people whose expected loss is considerably more than $1000. There will be times on that game where he loses $1000 after only $5000 of coin in. (That game is UGLY when you aren't hitting quads.)
 
I didn't make any of the up, Billy Joe. I'm quoting you. Simply put, your story is not believable. If it makes you feel better to call me names, go ahead. But that doesn't change the fact that you are trying to spin a tale here that does not compute.
 
Playing that much on that game, it is very common to lose tens of thousands of dollars a year. Some years many tens of thousands. It is essentially impossible to be a winner at that game.
 
I'm not sure what you want me to apologize for. I used your numbers and found out where they led. If this makes me an AZZ with no class, so be it.
 
Bob
 
 
And you got those Win/Loss limit numbers where? In another post that I did, perhaps,  as an EXAMPLE to someone else to illustrate a point? I never claimed to be playing at those win/loss levels every time that I play. You need to check your sources better, Bob. (UPDATE: I found the post where I mentioned a $1000 loss and $2000 win limit. I was answering a specific question from Cook1947 in the 'Comp Meals" thread, and I was using it as an example ).
 
Well, no matter, the expert has spoken. I must be a fraud . He proved it. I cannot possibly get to those tier levels. But did he consider that maybe VP is not the ONLY thing that I play in a casino, like maybe $5 and $10 slots?  Naw, he's the expert - he knows. He has the evidence. 
 
I am sorry that you wasted all that valuable time of yours 'proving'  all that, as you say. I would have rather you spent that time helping people on this site be better at the VP games that they play.
 
Over my years in business, Bob, I have dealt with people like you. It is one thing to be confident, but something totally different to be arrogant. When you run a business, as you do,  where you need people to respect you in order for them to pay for your services, you need to EARN their respect. I, quite frankly, don't care what you think of me, but you SHOULD care what people think of you. 
 
What I DO care about, though, is your 'accusations' that I am something other than what I portray, and telling some sort of 'story'. If someone on this site asks me a question about my play, tier status, comps or gaming approach, I answer from my own personal experience, openly and truthfully, without specifically revealing what I believe to be personal information and privacy matters. I have met a lot of nice people on this site, several of them in person, and I care about what they think. I will not have some 'expert' declaring in a public Forum that I have misrepresented myself in any way. You can run any set of incomplete numbers that you like, but all that you are proving is that you do not have all the information that you need to 'prove' anything.   
 
I just checked online (no, you can't have my name and account numbers to verify this, sorry ), and my current Harrahs/Caesars Tier score is 114k for 2012, and my MLife Tier score is currently about 1.6M credits. That does not make me better than anybody else, and has no bearing on wins or losses. It is purely a function of my casino play, both amount and frequency. If the casinos want to comp me, and compete for that play, I highly encourage them to do so.
 
The casinos take very good care of my wife and I, Bob. I enjoy my time when I travel there. That's all I know.