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I play the same machine most of the time. New Year's Eve the machine gave a hit and took it all back. New Year's Day I hit two RF within the first two hour period of play. Sunday, gave a good portion back and still haven't seen dealt 3 deuces in over 20+ hours of play.
Love good timing streaks.
Hate the bad timing streaks.
When the bad timing comes I try multiple options including changing which buttons I hit, switching back and forth between games, occasional profanity (under my breath to not offend), prayer, when I'm really smart I quit!!!!
What is the liklihood of Casino cheating at VP?
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Lucky Larry
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 2693
- Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:35 pm
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chucknorris5
- Forum Rookie
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:04 am
Ha! Well, said, the gambler's lamentation. I have done much the same. However, over the years, I have learned when I get "up" a certain amount. I walk out of the casino even if I have been there a short time. Doing this allows my to minimize the times when you leave a casino as a loser.
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ko king
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 670
- Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:13 pm
Where do you play now? I had been playing a lot at the Hollywood Casino in Lawrenceburg, Indiana which had 9/6 Jacks or Better and 9/7 TDB. I had a good run for several years but two years ago they pulled all the old machines and replaced them with new ones which also had much lower pay tables. Then, Horseshoe Cincinnati opened in March 2013. Up until December of 2013, Cincinnati had NSU Deuces Wild and 9/6 Jacks or better. In late December they reduced the pay tables radically making them unplayable. Like you, I may have to travel further to play better machines.
The casino I like the most is located in Cape Girardeau, Mo., I've played for about 24 years now all over the place mostly in the Ms. casinos. Until a few years ago I was one of the people like a few others here that believed in the games but not anymore. I used to use the poker statistics, paytables and payback percentages listed on this site to explain and defend the games to those who were confused and maybe a little frustrated to help them better understand how the games worked. Those numbers quit working for me a while back and no matter how much I played it was just getting worse. I don't know how it is where you play but I still run into players I used to see a few years back in Ms. at Cape and the say the same exact thing, it just got to tough to keep playing there. I still go there every once in a while and people just aren't playing the vp machines like they used to, sometimes I find myself all alone at the machines. I didn't mind seeing the old machines go away and had high hopes the new machines would perform better but I've seen no sign of them being any different. The funny thing is the machines at Cape are delivering just like the good old days. There's a couple of other casinos I really like but they're further down south.
The casino I like the most is located in Cape Girardeau, Mo., I've played for about 24 years now all over the place mostly in the Ms. casinos. Until a few years ago I was one of the people like a few others here that believed in the games but not anymore. I used to use the poker statistics, paytables and payback percentages listed on this site to explain and defend the games to those who were confused and maybe a little frustrated to help them better understand how the games worked. Those numbers quit working for me a while back and no matter how much I played it was just getting worse. I don't know how it is where you play but I still run into players I used to see a few years back in Ms. at Cape and the say the same exact thing, it just got to tough to keep playing there. I still go there every once in a while and people just aren't playing the vp machines like they used to, sometimes I find myself all alone at the machines. I didn't mind seeing the old machines go away and had high hopes the new machines would perform better but I've seen no sign of them being any different. The funny thing is the machines at Cape are delivering just like the good old days. There's a couple of other casinos I really like but they're further down south.
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chucknorris5
- Forum Rookie
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:04 am
Ko King, that's what is puzzling to me. I don't see how Harrah's makes any more profit by reducing the pay tables so that high volume video pokers no longer play the video poker machines. If anything, it would seem that Harrah's would make less money particularly as regards the higher dollar ($5 and higher) machines which only serious video poker players will play regularly. The casino will still, over the long haul, make some significant profit with higher volume play. Without the serious player, the machines are much less used and then when they are used it is usually by an intermittent gamblers who don't put 5 coins in per play. If some one with casino operations experience would answer this question, I would appreciate it.
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ko king
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 670
- Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:13 pm
Ko King, that's what is puzzling to me. I don't see how Harrah's makes any more profit by reducing the pay tables so that high volume video pokers no longer play the video poker machines. If anything, it would seem that Harrah's would make less money particularly as regards the higher dollar ($5 and higher) machines which only serious video poker players will play regularly. The casino will still, over the long haul, make some significant profit with higher volume play. Without the serious player, the machines are much less used and then when they are used it is usually by an intermittent gamblers who don't put 5 coins in per play. If some one with casino operations experience would answer this question, I would appreciate it.
Here's my take on this and it involves a strategy I have never liked but was used by a boss I had a long time ago. I worked for a very large corporation that had sales offices all over the U.S. and I worked in one that had a very large low profit sales volume. We did a ton of business there and took several of us working long hours to get the job done and service customers. For years we made money, good money and we had signs in the window and on the walls of our offices to remind us that everything we sold was sold at cost + 10%, customers loved us. When the new boss came in the whole approach to doing business changed, no more cost + 10%, our prices shot up overnight and we ended up losing some big accounts and people lost their jobs. He had me more confused than I had ever been so I just ask him why in the world would he think this was working. His answer was more of a question but he was right if the main concern is just making money, which is pretty much the corporate philosophy used by everyone nowdays. "Would you rather do $1 million dollars per month in business at 10% profit or would you rather do $500 thousand dollars in business per month at 20% profit"? It takes less people working fewer hours and it doesn't cost as much to service all the customers when you choose the high profit lower volume idea. Anyway that's my take on what's going on.
Here's my take on this and it involves a strategy I have never liked but was used by a boss I had a long time ago. I worked for a very large corporation that had sales offices all over the U.S. and I worked in one that had a very large low profit sales volume. We did a ton of business there and took several of us working long hours to get the job done and service customers. For years we made money, good money and we had signs in the window and on the walls of our offices to remind us that everything we sold was sold at cost + 10%, customers loved us. When the new boss came in the whole approach to doing business changed, no more cost + 10%, our prices shot up overnight and we ended up losing some big accounts and people lost their jobs. He had me more confused than I had ever been so I just ask him why in the world would he think this was working. His answer was more of a question but he was right if the main concern is just making money, which is pretty much the corporate philosophy used by everyone nowdays. "Would you rather do $1 million dollars per month in business at 10% profit or would you rather do $500 thousand dollars in business per month at 20% profit"? It takes less people working fewer hours and it doesn't cost as much to service all the customers when you choose the high profit lower volume idea. Anyway that's my take on what's going on.
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spxChrome
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 819
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:21 pm
[QUOTE=chucknorris5] I am a long time video poker player who primarily plays jacks or better or NSU deuces wild when I can find the machines. I play at the new Cincinnati Horseshoe and also at Southern Indiana. Harrah's in Southern Indiana has recently added new machines which don't pay out as much as they used to despite the fact that the pay tables remain the same. Has anyone else observed a similar situation with Harrah's elsewhere or am I just on a losing streak?
Seems like a trend nationwide since 2010. I hope this is just the end of a short run of bad luck and short term is not approaching infinity. To top it off my worst returns are with 9/6 job.[/QUOTE]
Yup no doubt about it, I play 1 million hands a year and its just not the same the past couple of years. My casino even raised their paytable to 10/6 for DDB. What I think has happened is that preflop the cards are random as outlined by the gaming commission. But are controlled to a certain payback % beyond that. I only say this because it seems the only way to get a handpay these days is to have it dealt. I went on a streak of 93, 128 and 118 having dealt trip Aces and not connecting. That is 3 connections where it should have been around 14.
Seems like a trend nationwide since 2010. I hope this is just the end of a short run of bad luck and short term is not approaching infinity. To top it off my worst returns are with 9/6 job.[/QUOTE]
Yup no doubt about it, I play 1 million hands a year and its just not the same the past couple of years. My casino even raised their paytable to 10/6 for DDB. What I think has happened is that preflop the cards are random as outlined by the gaming commission. But are controlled to a certain payback % beyond that. I only say this because it seems the only way to get a handpay these days is to have it dealt. I went on a streak of 93, 128 and 118 having dealt trip Aces and not connecting. That is 3 connections where it should have been around 14.
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case
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 917
- Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:37 am
I don't believe for a second anything has changed with VP machines.
You guys forget these machines are checked from time to time. They must stay within a certain + or - of the listed payback. This is figured out over thousands to millions of hands. If a casino is cheating or if they replace the chip as some have said they would not be in business long.
People were complaining 10 years ago about machines not paying out any more....and they complained 10 years before that.
It is normal to feel you have been cheated when you continually lose, but if you play near perfect strategy you will find your RTP will be accurate but ONLY over the long term.
Casinos do not need to cheat to make money.....the odds in the casinos favour do that.
I read where someone on this thread had 2 royals in one night. Now if he goes without a royal for the next 100,000 hands is the casino cheating again?
It all evens out over time....if you play correctly
You guys forget these machines are checked from time to time. They must stay within a certain + or - of the listed payback. This is figured out over thousands to millions of hands. If a casino is cheating or if they replace the chip as some have said they would not be in business long.
People were complaining 10 years ago about machines not paying out any more....and they complained 10 years before that.
It is normal to feel you have been cheated when you continually lose, but if you play near perfect strategy you will find your RTP will be accurate but ONLY over the long term.
Casinos do not need to cheat to make money.....the odds in the casinos favour do that.
I read where someone on this thread had 2 royals in one night. Now if he goes without a royal for the next 100,000 hands is the casino cheating again?
It all evens out over time....if you play correctly
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olds442jetaway
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 10751
- Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:08 pm
I disagree. Most of the regular posters here know how to and do play the games correctly. For many of us, results are not evening out over time and over millions of hands. This has escalated since 2010. None of us know for sure what is happening. We only know what our results are. It could also be that a short run can be something that lasts years and years. I hope not, but when you are dealing with infinity and statistics over time who knows.
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ko king
- VP Veteran
- Posts: 670
- Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:13 pm
I don't believe for a second anything has changed with VP machines.
You guys forget these machines are checked from time to time. They must stay within a certain + or - of the listed payback. This is figured out over thousands to millions of hands. If a casino is cheating or if they replace the chip as some have said they would not be in business long.
People were complaining 10 years ago about machines not paying out any more....and they complained 10 years before that.
It is normal to feel you have been cheated when you continually lose, but if you play near perfect strategy you will find your RTP will be accurate but ONLY over the long term.
Casinos do not need to cheat to make money.....the odds in the casinos favour do that.
I read where someone on this thread had 2 royals in one night. Now if he goes without a royal for the next 100,000 hands is the casino cheating again?
It all evens out over time....if you play correctly
I for one have plainly stated that I don't believe any casino would outright cheat, I do think they like any other corporation look for ways to increase profit margins. I don't think there's a chance in the world that any casino would tamper with or replace any vp program that wasn't pre-approved by the state. As for the machines being checked from time to time you are correct. I didn't just start playing the game, I've played for many years and know the correct holds so an understanding of the game, odds and statistics isn't a problem in my case. I also keep very detailed records of my play and I play that thousands to millions of hands you mentioned. I took my records and concerns to those that check the machines from time to time and was told they would run some test on the machines and get back to me. Now keep in mind the game I was playing had a 98.98% payback percentage and was said to be standard Class III vp. When they got back to I was told all but a couple of the lower denomination machines were operating within the "curve". When I ask what the "curve" was I was told between 83-99.9% payback. In other words the machines were just fine as far as they were concerned as long as the machine was paying back at least 83%. In the begining it was almost comical when I started asking questions, I ask the big man on campus, the one with the sheriffs badge if I was playing standard Class III vp and they looked like a deer caught in the headlights and finally said "that's probably something I should know, I'll check and get back to you.". I came to understand when it came to actually knowing about the game I was the only one in the room with a clue. With that said I'm glad you're happy and have complete faith and confidence in the games you are playing, I used to be like that and it took a lot of money and bad play to change me.
You guys forget these machines are checked from time to time. They must stay within a certain + or - of the listed payback. This is figured out over thousands to millions of hands. If a casino is cheating or if they replace the chip as some have said they would not be in business long.
People were complaining 10 years ago about machines not paying out any more....and they complained 10 years before that.
It is normal to feel you have been cheated when you continually lose, but if you play near perfect strategy you will find your RTP will be accurate but ONLY over the long term.
Casinos do not need to cheat to make money.....the odds in the casinos favour do that.
I read where someone on this thread had 2 royals in one night. Now if he goes without a royal for the next 100,000 hands is the casino cheating again?
It all evens out over time....if you play correctly
I for one have plainly stated that I don't believe any casino would outright cheat, I do think they like any other corporation look for ways to increase profit margins. I don't think there's a chance in the world that any casino would tamper with or replace any vp program that wasn't pre-approved by the state. As for the machines being checked from time to time you are correct. I didn't just start playing the game, I've played for many years and know the correct holds so an understanding of the game, odds and statistics isn't a problem in my case. I also keep very detailed records of my play and I play that thousands to millions of hands you mentioned. I took my records and concerns to those that check the machines from time to time and was told they would run some test on the machines and get back to me. Now keep in mind the game I was playing had a 98.98% payback percentage and was said to be standard Class III vp. When they got back to I was told all but a couple of the lower denomination machines were operating within the "curve". When I ask what the "curve" was I was told between 83-99.9% payback. In other words the machines were just fine as far as they were concerned as long as the machine was paying back at least 83%. In the begining it was almost comical when I started asking questions, I ask the big man on campus, the one with the sheriffs badge if I was playing standard Class III vp and they looked like a deer caught in the headlights and finally said "that's probably something I should know, I'll check and get back to you.". I came to understand when it came to actually knowing about the game I was the only one in the room with a clue. With that said I'm glad you're happy and have complete faith and confidence in the games you are playing, I used to be like that and it took a lot of money and bad play to change me.
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Vman96
- Video Poker Master
- Posts: 3298
- Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:49 am
I came to understand when it came to actually knowing about the game I was the only one in the room with a clue.
You never admitted which casino this happened at but at the one I am thinking could be, they are required to offer Class III video poker with their gaming compact. If it isn't a random standard poker deck, it would be in violation of the compact with the state.
Page 115 of lengthy pdf, bottom of relevant page says page 52 though.
http://www.bia.gov/cs/groups/xoig/docum ... 038317.pdf
Of course, the casino could be cheating on the compact anyway. Randomness is a hard thing for a human to sense.
And casino employees can be some of the worst people to ask about how these are supposed to work obviously. I had an hour-long fight with a casino manager over a programming mistake on a 25-play Super Times Pay machine at Monte Carlo back in May. It improperly made me max bet. He and the idiot slot tech disagreed. He eventually gave me $5 (my approximate loss to shut me up).
And ironically, last night while at the Tunica Roadhouse, I had similar issue with a "Hexbreaker" slot machine as its screen was miscalibrated, so I end up betting $1.95/spin versus $0.13/spin. The slot manager was already in the area greeting another player, so I waved him over. But I explained the problem, they verified it, and gave me $10 for the inconvenience and to cover the ~$4 lost by my initial spin, and their test spin on my money.
Soon after I hit a bonus, and he said, "I bet you were wishing you were max betting now!"
Unfortunately Tunica is mostly meh for paytables now with the Roadhouse downgrades this past April. But since you like DDB, all Caesars' properties in Tunica do now offer 9/6 DDB for dollars (or $5) along with Bally's and Fitz. And the CET games and the Bally's game is at the bar if you like to indulge like I do... That's better than what Cape offers, assuming all these places follow their states' laws of course. But I agree, Cape is a nice place. Just a little small for my taste. :( But they do have 2c Double STP that Roadhouse got rid of. :(
You never admitted which casino this happened at but at the one I am thinking could be, they are required to offer Class III video poker with their gaming compact. If it isn't a random standard poker deck, it would be in violation of the compact with the state.
Page 115 of lengthy pdf, bottom of relevant page says page 52 though.
http://www.bia.gov/cs/groups/xoig/docum ... 038317.pdf
Of course, the casino could be cheating on the compact anyway. Randomness is a hard thing for a human to sense.
And casino employees can be some of the worst people to ask about how these are supposed to work obviously. I had an hour-long fight with a casino manager over a programming mistake on a 25-play Super Times Pay machine at Monte Carlo back in May. It improperly made me max bet. He and the idiot slot tech disagreed. He eventually gave me $5 (my approximate loss to shut me up).
And ironically, last night while at the Tunica Roadhouse, I had similar issue with a "Hexbreaker" slot machine as its screen was miscalibrated, so I end up betting $1.95/spin versus $0.13/spin. The slot manager was already in the area greeting another player, so I waved him over. But I explained the problem, they verified it, and gave me $10 for the inconvenience and to cover the ~$4 lost by my initial spin, and their test spin on my money.
Soon after I hit a bonus, and he said, "I bet you were wishing you were max betting now!"
Unfortunately Tunica is mostly meh for paytables now with the Roadhouse downgrades this past April. But since you like DDB, all Caesars' properties in Tunica do now offer 9/6 DDB for dollars (or $5) along with Bally's and Fitz. And the CET games and the Bally's game is at the bar if you like to indulge like I do... That's better than what Cape offers, assuming all these places follow their states' laws of course. But I agree, Cape is a nice place. Just a little small for my taste. :( But they do have 2c Double STP that Roadhouse got rid of. :(
