Had to share

[olds442jetaway]

The lowest vp paytable may very well be in the 93% range. However, the true player return depends on what type of rng or other program they have in the innards. They will pay out based on the paytable just like any slot will, but I want to know for sure the " Rest of the story "

[roveer]

[QUOTE=roveer]   If I'm not mistaken (and I often am), I believe the lowest VP return percentage is 93%. Can someone confirm this.Wait.....do you mean, "lowest return percent" based on a paytable  is a paytable that returns 93%?      By that I obviously mean there is some game whereby the paytable when played optimum strategy only returns at best a horrid 93%.....ORAre you asking something else?[/QUOTE]
 We'll have to let the statistics guys chime in here.  Back when I was doing my research on the whole "slot device" thing I remember coming across something that said that the lowest crapiest oddest game pay table for VP could return as low as 93%.  Maybe I read it in one of the regs NJ or LV or came across it someplace.  The whole conspiricy of the slot device thing is that it would allow the casino to go below that down to the lowest amount allowed by slot machines which I believe was much lower. Now, maybe it turns out I am dead wrong and it's 96% or something like that but the point is, does the NJ reg state that the machine has to play true to the paytable (which we can see and know the expected return), or because it's classified as a "slot device" allow it to mess around with the purest form of RNG either by altering a hand or not allowing all possible outcomes to be presented each game.  I think there are other possibilities that I'm not listing. So, can someone tell us the lowest possible return % for VP.  Thanks. [edit] OK, I did a little digging and found one of my old posts which contains an article about rigged machines.  I think at the time I got beat up for this data being 20 years old, but you be the judge.  The part I was referring to is in section "Do the casinos cheat at Video Games Part 9".  But read the entire thing. http://forum.videopoker.com/forum/forum ... =5348&PN=1  Roveer 

[BobDancer]

 
IT IS ABSOLUTELY NO LONGER POSSIBLE, no matter where you play or what you do strategy wise, to come out ahead playing video poker, unless you just flat out get amazingly lucky and then QUIT before you give it back, but then that's the same with all gambling isnt it?


Your statement is absolutely NOT TRUE. There are games in most venues where the game + promotions + slot club + mailers exceed 100%. Wherever that is true, skillful players can profit.It does require discipline to only play the best games, plus searching out the best opportunities, plus learning the strategy close to perfectly --- but it definitely can still be done. No doubt about it.Quitting while you're ahead has NOTHING to do with the winning process. Playing when you have the edge has EVERYTHING to do with the winning process.I wish you well.Bob

[chattycattty]

[QUOTE=DaBurglar] 
IT IS ABSOLUTELY NO LONGER POSSIBLE, no matter where you play or what you do strategy wise, to come out ahead playing video poker, unless you just flat out get amazingly lucky and then QUIT before you give it back, but then that's the same with all gambling isnt it?


Your statement is absolutely NOT TRUE. There are games in most venues where the game + promotions + slot club + mailers exceed 100%. Wherever that is true, skillful players can profit.It does require discipline to only play the best games, plus searching out the best opportunities, plus learning the strategy close to perfectly --- but it definitely can still be done. No doubt about it.Quitting while you're ahead has NOTHING to do with the winning process. Playing when you have the edge has EVERYTHING to do with the winning process.I wish you well.Bob[/QUOTE]

And, it sure does not hurt to have a positive attitude and have a little luck along the way.

[olds442jetaway]

[QUOTE=DaBurglar] 
IT IS ABSOLUTELY NO LONGER POSSIBLE, no matter where you play or what you do strategy wise, to come out ahead playing video poker, unless you just flat out get amazingly lucky and then QUIT before you give it back, but then that's the same with all gambling isnt it?


Your statement is absolutely NOT TRUE. There are games in most venues where the game + promotions + slot club + mailers exceed 100%. Wherever that is true, skillful players can profit.It does require discipline to only play the best games, plus searching out the best opportunities, plus learning the strategy close to perfectly --- but it definitely can still be done. No doubt about it.Quitting while you're ahead has NOTHING to do with the winning process. Playing when you have the edge has EVERYTHING to do with the winning process.I wish you well.Bob[/QUOTE]


     Sorry, Bob...I have to differ with you a little here. While long term which could be a lifetime, your statement is true and the math bears it out, I find vp gambling or really any gambling to be like a big sine curve. The peaks meaning plus moments will get smaller over time and the valleys meaning losing moments will get deeper over time. However, if you take a survey of as many vp players as you can find and ask them if they were ahead at any point in the session, I think you will find that 90% of them will say yes. I am not counting comps or other non playing value here. Just dollars based on play. The problem with all of us who love vp, is we like to stay and play and play and play. Using myself as an example, if I added up all of the trips for the year where I was ahead 5% of my session bankroll at one point in a session, I would have been ahead last year and every year. By staying and playing for 8-16 hours a session though, you end up in the hole tens of thousands of dollars at the end of the year even with perfect play on 98.5-99.5 machines assuming you ran a few million through for the entire year.

[DaBurglar]

Your statement is absolutely NOT TRUE. There are games in most venues where the game + promotions + slot club + mailers exceed 100%. Wherever that is true, skillful players can profit.It does require discipline to only play the best games, plus searching out the best opportunities, plus learning the strategy close to perfectly --- but it definitely can still be done. No doubt about it.Quitting while you're ahead has NOTHING to do with the winning process. Playing when you have the edge has EVERYTHING to do with the winning process.I wish you well.BobOk, at the risk of turning this into a "SEMANTICS and word association/interpretation festival", I will have to conced your statement in reply to my ORIGINAL statement is (in the utmost and absolute sense) CORRECT....it is POSSIBLE given the convergence and intersection of the circumstances and conditions/outcomes you list as essential to producing a positive return.....But in simplest terms, as to whether or not this is REALISTIC (or in other words, likely, feasible etc) ......and adding to the mix each person's subjective definition of success within an activity that is supposed to be mere entertainment and is NOT supposed to be monetarily profitable to players to the extent that they can forgo all other activities and endeavors (in other words what constitues a "positive return" that is sufficiently "positive" to differentiate it from negative returns/experiences....and is this a productive enough use of one's time and energy and money to justify such claims and definitions, and is this sufficient to offset the opportunity cost(s) of one's time/energy/money  etc etc etc......)As I already alluded, Bob Dancer (name spelled correctly intentionally) is a recognized exception to the vast population of Video Poker players (and casino patrons in general.)   He is professionally vested in the game of Video Poker in ways and manners that the rest of us are not, nor cannot be (simply because he got there and did it first and there is no longer any room for anyone else.)   His "livelihood" is earned well beyond the combination of things that consititute simply playing "when he has the advantage"....For the rest of us, if we think about what it would require of us to always (and ONLY) play video poker when we have the advantage, what changes we would need to make in our lives and circumstances and what we would need to do in order to make this sufficiently "positive"......I am sure we could all see that it is POSSIBLE but probably not appealing or producing happiness or contentment.   Much of it is subjective, but much of it also is simple math.   AND ONE SIMPLE POTENTIAL CAVEAT ALWAYS REMAINS:   If during the course of a year I fastiduously adhere to all of Bob dancer's practices, principles and strategy and, thus always and only play when at an advantage, this still does not guarantee I will yield a "positive" year end TOTAL/result/profit......As has already been stated, the issue at the core of my experiences in AC has almost nothing to do with what Bob is talking about anyway.....even if I was playing on a %101 (or better) paytable,  the persistent, perpetual, pervasive  "DUDS", receiving abnormally long and extensive streaks of non-paying "busted" hands make straightup positive playing sessions impossible on any Video Poker game I choose (JOB, BP, DDB etc etc).....of course, the level of dismal-ness might be alleviated slightly playing a %101 game versus a 98% game with such duds because a few of my hands that actually hit would pay slightly more, and of course, adding certain factors like playing on days when certain promotions (like double points, comps, etc) occur will certainly help "A LITTLE, I still however, in the end, will not be looking at any great or grand concluding result....These days, What Bob is saying, or alluding to, is really only POSSIBLE in Las Vegas and/or Reno (on any large, regular WORTHWHILE scale, the state of Nevada is really the only place where it might be possible to REGULARLY gain the type and level of advantaged play and/or circumstances Bob aspires to).....and given the fact casinos have become UBER vigilant and sensitive to their bottom lines (and in particular the short term bottom lines, month to month or quarter to quarter), whenever any one casino produces or causes to come into existence a combination of conditions, offers and factors that work favorably to players to actually produce advantage play opportunities, they never last or reappear with sufficient frequency to make them anything but momentary exceptions, almost aberrations if you will....

[Tedlark]

Put whatever spin on it you want to DaBurglar or allude that you want to. Just concede that Bob (correct spelling) is CORRECT.

[roveer]

Put whatever spin on it you want to DaBurglar or allude that you want to. Just concede that Bob (correct spelling) is CORRECT.

OK, you guys got me. What's with the Bob (Correct spelling) thing. I missed the memo.

Roveer

[Tedlark]

  The memo said that DaBurglar has something against Bob Dancer and reflecting this; when DaBurglar posts something and mentions Bob Dancer, DaBurglar spells Bob's name wrong. One time it would be Bub Dancer, another time it'd be Bib Dancer, or Duncer, etc.

[DaBurglar]

Put whatever spin on it you want to DaBurglar or allude that you want to. Just concede that Bob (correct spelling) is CORRECT.I didIf you cannot read and understand my posts stop commenting on them, seriously....this has nothing to do with your "rights" to post and say what you want, and everything to do with just being RIGHT, not to mention you continue to make yourself look completely stupid with your posts to me, like this one above.You also realize everyone else can see right through your insipid saccharine faux friendly, benevolent and "positive" tone you take with everyone else in your posts to them, contrasted with your overt hostility, hyper-criticism and stalking of me?   Not that it matters or that anyone even cares....but your phony hypocrisy is pretty obvious.edited to add:   One other thing......just what exactly in my reply that you are now criticizing is "spin"?    What exactly do you disagree with or believe to be wrong?    Enough of your lazy-arse hit and run exercising your rights in the form of  "flame throwing and hand grenades" on my posts.