IS THIS TRUE?

[Tedlark]

  DaBurglar have you done any RESEARCH into who operates this website? Once you find that out TAKE...a look at the other companies that THEY are...loosely affiliated with.

[BillyJoe]

I wish Bob Dancer would chime in here on all of this. I would be curious to hear his opinion ( being in the know so to speak) on the existence of altered RNG programs and their use if any in casinos as far as video poker goes. I myself have received answers from slot techs that refer to partial rng programs. Unfortunately, I have no way of knowing if they really know anything or are just guessing. The only thing I know for sure per the slot techs is when they asked questions at meetings where there were machine programers present from the various companies, they got either no answers or answers they did not want to hear. That could of course be the result of orders from on high concerned about patents, etc. etc. or it could be something else that most of us are afraid of.
While I personally cannot speak for Bob, I know he takes pride in being an advantage player. Since he plays VP, and any 'tampering' would have a negative effect on any advantage he has calculated, I would have to say that he believes that the VP machines are random, and pay in accordance to their pay table over the long term.
 
What I heard when I talked to a programmer in Vegas recently that had intimate knowledge of IGT's process (he now works for an Internet Gaming platform provider), once the machine is constructed by IGT to the buyer's specifications, it is tested for adherence to regulations. If it passes, it is sealed, and the internal programming CANNOT be changed without changing the internal components of the machine. Any changes to those internal components would void the stamp of approval from the regulatory body, and would have to be re-tested for adherence.  

[DougJ]

[QUOTE=olds442jetaway]I wish Bob Dancer would chime in here on all of this. I would be curious to hear his opinion ( being in the know so to speak) on the existence of altered RNG programs and their use if any in casinos as far as video poker goes. I myself have received answers from slot techs that refer to partial rng programs. Unfortunately, I have no way of knowing if they really know anything or are just guessing. The only thing I know for sure per the slot techs is when they asked questions at meetings where there were machine programers present from the various companies, they got either no answers or answers they did not want to hear. That could of course be the result of orders from on high concerned about patents, etc. etc. or it could be something else that most of us are afraid of.
While I personally cannot speak for Bob, I know he takes pride in being an advantage player. Since he plays VP, and any 'tampering' would have a negative effect on any advantage he has calculated, I would have to say that he believes that the VP machines are random, and pay in accordance to their pay table over the long term.
 
What I heard when I talked to a programmer in Vegas recently that had intimate knowledge of IGT's process (he now works for an Internet Gaming platform provider), once the machine is constructed by IGT to the buyer's specifications, it is tested for adherence to regulations. If it passes, it is sealed, and the internal programming CANNOT be changed without changing the internal components of the machine. Any changes to those internal components would void the stamp of approval from the regulatory body, and would have to be re-tested for adherence.  [/QUOTE]

Is it perhaps more accurate to state that all of the machines, such as IGT, are manufactured the same, but casinos have the options of ordering a specific chip which has a specific program? Or does this only apply to true slot machines?

[DaBurglar]

this is what I mean by overcomplicating and overthinking.  There is a difference between HARD coded programing, and what I repeatedly call user defined features and variables.....examples would be (obviously) the paytable on Video poker; this is clearly such a user defined feature.  On SLOT machines, the casino sets, and then re-sets, and then re-sets some more, some variable or setting that causes the machine's programming to produce game results that, over time will return whatever percentage the casino wants (supposedly all the way down to the LIMIT established by the state's gaming commission.)   That is it....no one is going in or breaking seals or tampering with code, etc.    We are NOT talking about tampering, especially in the case of New jersey.....the gaming regs obviously classify Video Poker as another form of slots, the VP machines in AC in general yield return percentages that are not even close to what their paytables say should be the return percentages, the VP machines deal no-value (dud) hands far in excess of the expected 55% rate a normal VP machine's RNG would produce, thus reducing the overall payback % down into the 85-90% range.....Obviously, a company like IGT produces games that go to different markets/casinos in different states and jurisdictions....the machines would be modified according to their customers needs and desires, but I would imagine the differences are slight because to change the variables we are talking about, such as the payback % on a slot or the number of non-paying (dud) hands in Video poker, would simply require a USER inputting a simple number or variable.....not even close to "programming" or tampering, etc.

[Tedlark]

  DaBurglar it is true that a company like IGT produces games that go to different markets/casinos in different states and jurisdictions. But, and this would be a BIG BUTT is that the games produced by IGT ALSO... have to meet the state regulations for where the games will be located.   If you open a casino in, say, New Jersey and you call it: DaBurglar's Ultimate Dairy and Casino, or just DUD Casino for short. You can't just stroll into IGT's offices and say "I would like 2 video poker machines set to payout 14%. IGT will tell you, albeit in a very polite and legal way, that they cannot do it. This is of course after you tell them that your DUD Casino will be located in New Jersey.

[DaBurglar]

  DaBurglar it is true that a company like IGT produces games that go to different markets/casinos in different states and jurisdictions. But, and this would be a BIG BUTT is that the games produced by IGT ALSO... have to meet the state regulations for where the games will be located.   If you open a casino in, say, New Jersey and you call it: DaBurglar's Ultimate Dairy and Casino, or just DUD Casino for short. You can't just stroll into IGT's offices and say "I would like 2 video poker machines set to payout 14%. IGT will tell you, albeit in a very polite and legal way, that they cannot do it. This is of course after you tell them that your DUD Casino will be located in New Jersey.ridiculous

[FloridaPhil]

I see no problem with video poker machine manufacturers or aftermarket companies selling chips that fit a particular market's regulations.  If the gambling regulations are not the same all over the Country, why not?   Clipping a few percent from video poker play multiplied by all the hands played is a lot of money and with no one to say anything about it because the regulations in that State allow it.   I don't know and I don't care if the machines I play are rigged because I play single coin quarters and my losses are worth the price of admission. On the other hand if I was playing thousands of dollars and hour, it would make me think more than twice.

[Minn. Fatz]

Here's my (over)thinking:

IGT and other manufacturers make the RNGs for video poker machines.

If those machines are sold to be used in Nevada, they arguably have to meet the most stringent standards and inspection regime in the nation. Those machines have to operate as if they were a dealer randomly shuffling and dealing a deck of cards. The risk of the Nevada authorities uncovering a machine set, say, to deal the Ace of Spades half as often as it should be dealt are too great.

To believe that the machines in New Jersey or Indiana or Mississippi or Minnesota somehow behave differently than those in Nevada one needs to believe either:

a. IGT and other manufacturers, in addition to making machines that meet strict Nevada regulations, also make "custom" machines that would not meet those regulations;

b. Casinos outside Nevada are willing and able to fiddle with the machines without the knowledge or collusion of the manufacturer in order to affect the expected return.

Either of these possibilities, once uncovered, would be harmful -- if not fatal -- to the fortunes of IGT and other manufacturers.

Ergo:

It is in the interests of the manufacturers, if not the "USERS," of video poker machines to take every precaution to ensure those machines operate as advertised.

As far as manufacturers being unwilling to share inside information about RNGs, etc. with casino machine techs, I recall it was a machine tech who worked out the programming for a keno machine and basically turned it into a money printing machine, so I can understand that too.

[DaBurglar]

The RNg is not, repeat NOT altered, ever.   the RNG is a simple piece of computer programming that spits out numbers, as simple as a computer can get....It is WHAT the GAME PROGRAMMING, and associated variables and settings does WITH the results from the RNG that is the issue here, as each game, whether it is slots or keno or Video Poker does its own specific processing and reconsciling of the results from the RNg to produce the actual PLAY result that we players see and enjoy (or not) and get paid with (or not).....What I am saying is that Video Poker RNGs generate their results, and THEN the game programming and variables and settings and what not kick in and give us the results (crappy or otherwise) that are the issue at hand....In the case of Slots (which in New Jersey video poker is part of), the RNG generates its thousands of results per second, and THEN the payback setting that the casino has input for that particular slot game (whether it is 92% or 84% or whatever) is reconciled through the programming to generate the FINAL result that a player sees and is "entertained' by ...... what these variables are and what these settings are is different for each game, but they DO exist.    Have any of you ever played a simple computer wargame or strategy game?  they utilize RNGs all the time.....in many games you can set one side (or opponent) to have an advantage against another side/opponent.  This advantage is manifested or made real by the WEIGHTING of the results of one RNG in favor of one of the opponents so that over the course of time as the game is played, the side with the weighted advantage wins more battles (i.e. Hands, or slot pulls in casino terms.)      SOMEHOW, in video poker machines, a casino CAN, if it chooses and is allowed by its states regulations, have the RNG results WEIGHTED so that over time more random results are selected/generated that favor the casino, in the form of hands that produce no payback.    Again, it is NOT the RNG itself that is altered or changed, but whatever PROGRAMMABLE settings and variables that users (i.e. casinos) have access to......

[Tedlark]

  DaBurglar go back to Minn.Fatz's post of yesterday at 1:08 pm and read the bottom. It CLEARLY says that the machine cannot be programed or altered THAT WILL change the selection made by the RNG.    Playing a computer "wargame" in which an RNG can be altered is one thing. But when it comes to GAMES OF CHANCE, regulations WON'T allow it.    If a game maker, you mentioned IGT so I'll stick with them, gets caught doing something illegal it could possibly put them out of business. Even if they did this with ONE machine and got caught IT WOULD PUT THEM OUT OF BUSINESS.  Ridiculous, absurd, preposterous...