casino regulation and the future

[notes1]

i have a good friend who has been in the casino business for years, thought some may be interested in some parts of a recent discussion. this person has a math background, works in management (but not top tier position) at a non tribal casino, believes the machines are random, but notes there is no way of knowing for sure. -upper management believes the future of casinos is with non gaming revenue. hotel rooms, food, shows, booze, is where executives believe their best chance at succeeding are at. -there is indeed plenty of state regulation at casinos. but, all the eyes are on the money, such as the 'count' room. the regulators primary interest is with making sure the government gets it's share. regulators are there everyday. -at the casinos this person has worked at, the only time they see a regulator regarding any game or machine, is when there has been a customer complaint to state authorities. this person cannot remember any random checks. -casinos perform computer checks on their machines on a regular basis. these computer programs check the 'programmed' hold against the actual win, to make sure their actual win is inline with expected hold. these programs check various time periods. as you can imagine, short term results vary greatly. as expected, over the long term, slots machine expected and actual results are nearly identical. VP is different. the hold may be 1, 2 or 3 %, but the actual win is higher. likely due to faulty play.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=notes1]casinos perform computer checks on their machines on a regular basis.
these computer programs check the 'programmed' hold against the actual
win, to make sure their actual win is inline with expected hold. these
programs check various time periods.[/quote]Last year I was playing very early in the morning and was able to witness what I think was one of these checks. A manager and two assistants were going around opening machines and running some programs.  They let me watch them at a distance.  On the screen I could clearly see the return percentages for each game on the machine including Keno.  As I remember, the return for Keno was very low.   Keno is a  high variance game, so it made sense to me.  It was very interesting to see those numbers.  I believe the games are fair, but I'm sure they would pull a specific machine if they thought it was giving away too much.  I ran into this last summer in Tampa.  One of the machines went crazy with quad deuces.  It gave me a $1,000 quad deuce 3 separate times after playing just one $20 bill.  Could be a coincidence, but the machine was gone the next month.

[Vman96]

-casinos perform computer checks on their machines on a regular basis. these computer programs check the 'programmed' hold against the actual win, to make sure their actual win is inline with expected hold. these programs check various time periods. as you can imagine, short term results vary greatly. as expected, over the long term, slots machine expected and actual results are nearly identical. VP is different. the hold may be 1, 2 or 3 %, but the actual win is higher. likely due to faulty play.

This is the most important statement. As long as the actual win isn't much more than 2% higher than the theoretical win for VP, it sounds like his casino is on the up and up at least when it comes to the "average results" if you accept his explanations. Now if someone believes they manipulate your individual results via his/her players card because "they know who you are", then all bets are off.

I'm a little disappointed to hear there aren't really random machine checks, but with shoestring regulation budgets in some areas, this probably isn't too surprising. Isn't the saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it?"   

[DaBurglar]

good thread, good posts......thank you notes1 for posting your personal story and experience(s) with your friend in the casino industry.    As you know< i too have shared such similar stories in the past, and I was usually criticized for posting very similar info as what you posted here, primarily because certain people simply do not "like" the underlying implications of what is being said and told to everyone because it clashes with their fantasy that ALL casinos, are ALWAYS totally fair and random, ALL THE TIME.  The fact that you (and I) have such friends and acquaintances, and have learned such ....(ahem)....."INSIDER" (lol) info, seems to disturb some people somewhat,   I have shared in the past the fact that some of my friends who work, or have worked, in casinos are not always able to guarantee that the casino(s) they worked at are 100% on the level, OR that existing regulatory bodies and forces (even in Nevada) are 100% guaranteed to always find and stop and fix ANY and all possible irregularities or unfairness or violations of gaming regs/rules.I asked (seriously, truly asked) Bob Dancer in a thread a while ago to share what he truly knows about just how exactly the whole casino OVERSIGHT process works (both in theory and in actual practice)......he does not want to talk about it.    Not surprising.....cognitive dissonance is 100% necessary for his chosen "PROFESSION" and I guess I can respect at least that part of it......but still, we all truly must wonder, given the size of casinos both individually and collectively as an...."INDUSTRY"......and given the nature of human beings and human, umm, er, ....."nature" (lol) and the fact that since the garden of Eden, mankind is subject to repeated and prolific bouts of corruption, greed and just plain bad judgement (or stupidity, take your pick)....and given the nature of corporate existentialism today whereby even Casino Corporations are under tremendous pressure just to simply SURVIVE, let alone THRIVE......All this enhances the possibility that the inherent "Fairness, Randomness and Chance to win"  that all of us Video Poker players assume is the "norm" (from casual single coiners all the way up to the grand poobah of Winning, the previously mentioned Mr. B. Dancer) is at least sometimes NOT what we actually GET.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=vman96] Now if someone believes they manipulate your individual results via
his/her players card because "they know who you are", then all bets are
off.[/quote]I can tell you from a programmer's point of view this would be a software nightmare.  It seems that way sometimes, but the cost of doing this would be much higher than the gain.  It does make me chuckle to think about it.  You walk into the casino, put your card in the machine and the guy in the tower sees you on the monitor and says  "There's that bastard that hit a royal flush last week, we'll take care of him this time!!!"

[notes1]

-do not know for sure, but i do not believe the casino check on any machine needs to be done directly at each machine.-there may be random checks at other casinos, this person was only speaking from the experience of casinos worked at.-i do know that if a machine (mostly slots) is under performing as expected, it is removed from the floor. did not ask about over performing slot machines. i am waiting to hear what the exact 'actual' return from a VP machine, could be greater than 2%. bad play, drunk play,etc.-this is only one person observations and this is not an upper tier executive. as some are interested, i will mention a couple other items. this person has an extensive math background, plays VP on a very limited basis, believes the machines are random and does not believe the odds favor anyone winning. when this person does play (at other casinos), this person moves from machine to machine hoping to catch a 'hot' machine. makes no sense for a math person. among the bigger worries casino execs have are 'whales' who cut special deals to get 'loss' protection. limited number of cases, but all execs are aware of the AC case, where a single player caused at least one casino to report a quarterly loss.   '

[DaBurglar]

-do not know for sure, but i do not believe the casino check on any ................................................. ......................................among the bigger worries casino execs have are 'whales' who cut special deals to get 'loss' protection. limited number of cases, but all execs are aware of the AC case, where a single player caused at least one casino to report a quarterly loss.   'Notes,  are you talking about the blackjack player who was able to take the Tropicana, Borgata and one other casino for over 10 million back in 2009 or 2010?!??!?

[notes1]

[QUOTE=notes1]

-do not know for sure, but i do not believe the casino check on any ................................................. ......................................among the bigger worries casino execs have are 'whales' who cut special deals to get 'loss' protection. limited number of cases, but all execs are aware of the AC case, where a single player caused at least one casino to report a quarterly loss. 'Notes,  are you talking about the blackjack player who was able to take the Tropicana, Borgata and one other casino for over 10 million back in 2009 or 2010?!??!?[/QUOTE]
 yes, although i do not remember the exact casinos and amounts they lost. i would be interested to know more about these loss protection deals (whatever they are called) that some high rollers are able to get.  outside of cheating, i do not think the casinos are concerned about peons like me, they worry about the big hitters who gain an advantage, win big and walk away.

[DaBurglar]

  yes, although i do not remember the exact casinos and amounts they lost. i would be interested to know more about these loss protection deals (whatever they are called) that some high rollers are able to get.  outside of cheating, i do not think the casinos are concerned about peons like me, they worry about the big hitters who gain an advantage, win big and walk away.I remember this whole episode very well..... I was well into my newfound involvement with AC when some blackjack shark was somehow able to go on a run whereby he nailed the three AC casinos of nearly 10 million bucks in a very short period of time, with the tropicana being the most hurt of the 3 casinos........the CEO/President of Tropicana at the time was fired (and replaced by none other than Tony Rodio) because he was the unlucky big wig who ultimately gave the "OK" for the floor officials at the Trop to allow the player to increase his bets to something absurd like 100K per hand, when the "damage" really took on huge proportions.      The reason the next two casinos were hit so hard was they quite literally did not think this guy's luck would hold out and they thought they could acquire their rivals money from him....it did not pan out that way however.FYI -  The president of the Trop who was fired is NOW the guy running Resorts-AC......they correctly realized he was not to blame for the bad luck the Trop experienced and instead realized he was a guy who had some talent.     What I always wondered was whether the guy who was fired (his name escapes me at the moment but he is well known in AC....Peter something or other I believe...)  was let go with or without Carl Icahn's knowledge or blessing.    I only ask because Icahn is much too smart and savvy to simply S88tcan a competent executive for something that easily could have sung in the casino's favor but simply did not........I would think he was axed by someone under Icahn but above the casino executive who felt obliged to shift the blame somewhere to make investors or creditors satisfied over the quarterly losses......at the time the TROP was recovering from a near-fatal downtick in business (one which was happening all over AC except at Borgata, a casino which was the last victim of this BJ shark!)......

[ravenbynight111]

Last Sunday 60 minutes aired a segment on cell phones being hacked. The top hacker said a cell phone is a computer and anything can be hacked and programmed, I just don't understand how people can be so naïve about the reality of life. People are corrupt always have been and it will continue.Just my two cents