tinkering w/royals

[knagl]

cddenver: American Coin was the company with the rigged video poker games (there was a tiny piece of code that would prevent Royal Flushes from being hit), and yes, they were shut down and the owners lost their gaming licenses.  There's semi-famous video of the gaming comission hauling their games out of local bars that had them.


 
MikeA: You're talking about server-based games which (for better or worse) are going to be the future of the casino floor when it comes to slot machines and video poker.  The gist of it is that instead of physically changing out a chip (and the glass for the game theme), the slot manager can simply click his mouse and change what game is available on a specific machine.  For example, a particular machine could be "Little Green Men" one day, and then be changed to "Hoot Loot" later that same day.  ...or an entire bank at a time could be changed from a slot machine to video poker.
 
...or, and this is the dangerous part... a "Little Green Men" game with a 96% payback could be changed to a "Little Green Men" game with an 86% payback, all with the same click of the mouse, and nobody would be the wiser.
 
The rules in Nevada state that if a casino is going to change the program on one of these machines, it must sit idle for a certain number of minutes (I don't have the regulations in front of me), then the machine must display a message for a certain number of minutes indicating that the programming is being changed, and then it can be used.  You do not have to worry about the programming being changed while you're sitting there playing a machine (the theory of, "I'm winning, so they're going to make the machine tighter to get the money back" won't fly).
 
It has neat possibilities -- casinos could better cater to the demographic that is there at the time (nickle slot machines during the day for seniors, for example, and then dollar video poker at night).  It also, however, means that in the hands of the "wrong" person it could be very bad for the player.
 
On the plus side, Video Poker in Nevada will always be able to accurately tell the player what they're up against, as the cards still have to be fairly dealt, and the paytable can tell the player what the payback of the machine is, even if it was better (or worse) the day before.
 
Treasure Island (Las Vegas) was the only casino I've heard of that is actually testing this out already, but that was a few months ago -- it's quite possible that other casinos are using this technology already, too.  Most new machine cabinets being sold by the manufacturers are "ready" for server-based gaming.

[MikeA]

cddenver:
MikeA: You're talking about server-based games which (for better or worse) are going to be the future of the casino floor when it comes to slot machines and video poker. 
 
Yes Knagl, that jives with what I recall.  How can "they" (Gaming Commission) monitor/enforce that stipulation that the game machine has to sit idle and then display a message stating that it is changing? 
 
Actually, that might not be that difficult with Video Poker since the Pay Tables have to be prominently displayed and assuming that is the ONLY control the casino has over VP.  But it sure seems like a Paranoid's nightmare with slots.

[cddenver]

Thanks for the EXCELLENT info on the reasons behind the server-based approach.  I had thought the sole reason was to reduce game upgrade costs, and hadn't even considered the demographic aspects of it.
 
Here in CO it's being studied as an "issue", and far as I know there aren't any specific plans to implement it at even a test level.
 

[babybubba]

I had nothing to do with that article and I haven't even heard of it until reading this thread tonight. However, anyone with an open mind wouldn't simply write it off as some kind of BS. I've never seen anyone so paranoid that their beliefs just might not be 100% true as a pack of video poker players. Look at it this way: Anyone [snipped] to play any amount of video poker at any Indian casino anywhere is more than hypocritical when it comes to disagreeing with anything written about the game anywhere. And anyone desparate enough to have talked themselves into Indian casinos being regulated by a state-over-tribe order of precedence instead of vice-versa has an on-going serious problem with playing the game much too often. It couldn't be said any more clearly.

[shadowman]

Look at it this way: Anyone [snipped] to play any amount of video poker at any Indian casino anywhere is more than hypocritical when it comes to disagreeing with anything written about the game anywhere. And anyone desparate enough to have talked themselves into Indian casinos being regulated by a state-over-tribe order of precedence instead of vice-versa has an on-going serious problem with playing the game much too often. It couldn't be said any more clearly.
 
Anyone who states categorically that they have knowledge about the interaction between states and Indian casinos and then posts absolutely nothing to back up their assertion is clearly pushing an agenda.
 
Let's see some facts, Rob.

[babybubba]

"Anyone who states categorically that they have knowledge about the interaction between states and Indian casinos and then posts absolutely nothing to back up their assertion is clearly pushing an agenda. Let's see some facts, Rob."
 
My knowledge is based on the following facts:
1. I have seen the same card pop out on the draw that was dealt and tossed at Foxwoods (twice) & Harrah's Ak-Chin, while training a VERY surprised player.
2. On a radio show here in Phoenix on KTAR I debated the Casino Arizona Tribal Gaming Authority over the fairness of their vp games. They would not answer any direct question clearly as to whether or not they eliminated the random part of their machines. A representative of the State Gaming Commission was on the panel and he responded to my inquiries by saying "The Tribe has all regulatory authority and they verify the fairness of their games". The Tribe responded "The State has all regulatory authority and they verify the fairness of the games." I won the debate on all sides and none of them would ever come back on for another go.
 
If you had gone thru those two scenarios are you willing to stick with your assumptions that Indian games are fair? I know, I know, that casino in minnesota is "different" because you're there every other day. But I believe you understand that Indian casinos are no more safe to play at than those idiotic on-line casinos. You just like playing at them because when you're home that's all you have. 

[shadowman]

My knowledge is based on the following facts:
1. I have seen the same card pop out on the draw that was dealt and tossed at Foxwoods (twice) & Harrah's Ak-Chin, while training a VERY surprised player.
 
Proof please. I wouldn't doubt he has ran into this playing games where this can legitimately happen but just forgets to mention this little fact.
 
2. On a radio show here in Phoenix on KTAR I debated the Casino Arizona Tribal Gaming Authority over the fairness of their vp games. They would not answer any direct question clearly as to whether or not they eliminated the random part of their machines. A representative of the State Gaming Commission was on the panel and he responded to my inquiries by saying "The Tribe has all regulatory authority and they verify the fairness of their games". The Tribe responded "The State has all regulatory authority and they verify the fairness of the games." I won the debate on all sides and none of them would ever come back on for another go.
 
Anyone out there that can verify this?
 
[snipped]
 

[babybubba]

"Proof please. I wouldn't doubt he has ran into this playing games where this can legitimately happen but just forgets to mention this little fact."
 
[snipped]  people here can read exactly where I saw this happen. Why would you pretend I didn't?. 
 
[snipped]
[snipped]

[cddenver]

1. I have seen the same card pop out on the draw that was dealt and tossed at Foxwoods (twice) & Harrah's Ak-Chin, while training a VERY surprised player.
 
If there was a generic problem regarding dupes, wouldn't that happen more often?

[babybubba]

"If there was a generic problem regarding dupes, wouldn't that happen more often?"
 
Sounds reasonable but I'm not sure. Either way, I don't play in Indian casinos--only train others in them and that's not often.