How do you interpet this?

[olds442jetaway]

Wish I had the answer. I don't.

[Tedlark]

  The audits are RANDOM. A casino knows that there is a possibility that a machine which has been tampered or altered can be chosen in a RANDOM audit. Even though it is a slight chance the casino cannot take that chance because the risk is too high. I also can only speculate that if a casino has tampered with a machine and the machine manufacturer finds out then they would have a gripe against the casino too.   I'm almost done chewing and then it's on to the digesting.

[BillyJoe]

Let me ask this again and hope (pray) it does not get ignored, because this is central to what I have been saying about AC video Poker (aka "slot") machines.......We all know that SLOT machine games use an RNG just like Video Poker Machines.....we also KNOW that slot machine payback % falls into a range that has the minimum return dictated by each state (i.e. 83% in New Jersey's case), and the maximum is often dictated too as many states prohibit having any machine that returns 100% or more.....and each casino can (and does) set each slot machine's payback%, sometimes setting machines offering the same game (say, "Stinkin Rich"  or "Cleopatra's Gold") to have different payback%.  I could be playing a stinkin rich game set to return 91% and Tedlark could be sitting right next to me, letting the air out of my tires and putting cigarette ashes in my drink, and playing a stinkin rich game set at 89%...or 93%....or whatever.SO....in New Jersey's case, any casino can (and does) goes in and sets its SLOT games to return something in the range of 83% to 99%.......HOW DOES the casino actually do this?   What settings, buttons, utilities, etc  does it access when it goes into EACH slot machine and sets the payback%?      The answer (from a non-specific general standpoint) is OBVIOUSLY there is something inside the slot machine(s) accessible by a casino slot tech where he sets the value the casino wants the machine to return....and this value OBVIOUSLY is perodically adjusted up or down depending on the casino's business agenda.          This much we all agree on, right??????      To further back this up, consider just what exactly a GAMING ENFORCEMENT agent would be checking if he or she were to periodically audit a casino's machines....if the agent wanted to spot check a machine, obviously (given the total number of machines out there) this has to be a quick and easy process so clearly the agent would simply be looking for the SLOT payback value to ensure its in line with state requirements, and probably eyeball the chip seal to make sure its intact........right?????I will stop here to allow everyone else to catch up and chew on what I just wrote before continuing on to Video Poker (aka SLOT) machines in AC....but it behooves all of us to keep in mind JUST how formidable a task it TRULY is for gaming agencies to actually AUDIT and check the machines in all the casinos within its jurisdiction.....clearly a lot is placed in good faith consideration, and until or unless the agencies have SOLID, CONCRETE reason to believe there is a problem with a particular casino's machines, they dont do much actual checking of machines (too few agents, too many machines, too many OTHER more pressing issues and concerns requiring agency resources to be diverted....etc.)     We place a lot of faith in casinos when we play there......
No disagreement there, until you got to the part about VP machines. I do not believe, even in New Jersey, that the VP machines, at least from IGT, have the same setting options as a traditional slot machine. Changing a VP machine's payback percentage changes it's paytable - I have seen it.   

[Vman96]

No disagreement there, until you got to the part about VP machines. I do not believe, even in New Jersey, that the VP machines, at least from IGT, have the same setting options as a traditional slot machine. Changing a VP machine's payback percentage changes it's paytable - I have seen it.   

Agree with you here. Because I will always believe DaBurglar interprets New Jersey law incorrectly. He makes a huge deal about VP being slot machines in NJ. So what? They are in Nevada too! They just call them "electronic gaming devices" instead. But both states word the law where "skill based machines" must allow the player to determine the strategy for the maximum return. And the only way to do this is give the probabilities of all the cards in play. If they don't explicitly do this, the only logical assumption is they all are equal. Which logically means the paytable determines the maximum payback in both Nevada and New Jersey, and if it doesn't then the game is illegal.

Whether NJ machines are set illegally, that's beyond my knowledge.

[edog743]

Billyjoe, you are right that there is a difference between tribal and non tribal casinos. The difference is tribal casinos not only have the state watching there every move I.E. the state gaming board. They also have the federal government inspecting their machines. Non tribal casinos do not have the federal government watching them.

[DaBurglar]

[QUOTE=billyjoe]
No disagreement there, until you got to the part about VP machines. I do not believe, even in New Jersey, that the VP machines, at least from IGT, have the same setting options as a traditional slot machine. Changing a VP machine's payback percentage changes it's paytable - I have seen it.   

Agree with you here. Because I will always believe DaBurglar interprets New Jersey law incorrectly. He makes a huge deal about VP being slot machines in NJ. So what? They are in Nevada too! They just call them "electronic gaming devices" instead. But both states word the law where "skill based machines" must allow the player to determine the strategy for the maximum return. And the only way to do this is give the probabilities of all the cards in play. If they don't explicitly do this, the only logical assumption is they all are equal. Which logically means the paytable determines the maximum payback in both Nevada and New Jersey, and if it doesn't then the game is illegal.

Whether NJ machines are set illegally, that's beyond my knowledge.[/QUOTE]This last line in Billiejoe's post      "Changing a VP machine's payback percentage changes it's paytable - I have seen it.    What have you seen exactly???    You actually saw a tech INPUT the payback percentage for a video poker machine, and then the paytable automatically updates/changes its values to correlate with that specific payback%?I'm not arguing yea or nay or whatever, I can see and beleive machines acting this way, makes perfect sense to me......but in all my lurking around casinos at 2:30 am, when the slot techs are out with the carts and devices going from machine to machine, I have never been able to get a clear gander at what they are typing or adjusting, although I have seen the DEVICES and LAPTOPS that many techs use when tinkering with the VP machines and its interesting stuff.But VMAN, Nevada calls Video Poker "VIDEO POKER" in its game regs, not just euphemistically "Gaming devices".   Nevada clearly dlineates and distinguishes Video Poker from Slots, it is quite specific in detailing just HOW different the two games are.     New Jersey is not.....and my so-called "misinterpretation" is backed up by what I have been told and encountered thus far from others, casino folks and the gaming enforcement office (Located on Tennessee Avenue just off the boardwalk at the corner of the two, use the Tennessee Entrance as the boardwalk entrance is locked...ring the bell if no one is at the window.)     The play results over time also indicate many NJ-AC vp machines are starkly different (but not neccessarily ALL VP machines, some have been set to simply reflect the paytables...)But until someone somewhere comes along here and is able to clearly show and tell us just what exactly today's video poker machines can and do feature in terms of "user" (i.e. casino) capabilities, this debate will be forced to rely on deductive reasoning and forensic analysis, as well as anecdotal input (such as everything I have shared.)    But given the fact that in today's world, technology is extremely robust and versatile, I will always leave open the possibilities.....I think today's VP machines come with a veritable cornucopia of features and utilities and settings, and each state's casinos can utilize what they specifically want and need.   As for audits by state gaming agents, from what I know and have observed and been told, it is extremely RARE for agents these days to just show up and start checking machines.   it doesnt happen that way.....if SPECIFIC machine(s) are being complained about on a consistent frequent basis with the nature of the complaints being the same, THEN a check of that machine might take place....back in 2008, I had (and still do) several friends who are on Las Vegas Metro Police department, and they frequently work (along with the clark county sheriff) with the Gaming control office on a variety of issues, and one thing they made clear to me was how overworked Nevada's gaming agency truly is.....now since Nevada's agency is the one truly professional and SIZABLE agency, and given the fact that Nevada's state economy is so dependent on gaming, it is troublesome to say the least if THEY of all places finds it difficult to be able to check ALL its machines.   The so-called "risk" that casinos take by having a "rotten" machine on its floor is not as prolific as we want to believe.....it just is not.....in order to lose a license, a casino essentially has to almost WANT to lose it....think about it.

[BillyJoe]

[QUOTE=Vman96] [QUOTE=billyjoe]
No disagreement there, until you got to the part about VP machines. I do not believe, even in New Jersey, that the VP machines, at least from IGT, have the same setting options as a traditional slot machine. Changing a VP machine's payback percentage changes it's paytable - I have seen it.   

Agree with you here. Because I will always believe DaBurglar interprets New Jersey law incorrectly. He makes a huge deal about VP being slot machines in NJ. So what? They are in Nevada too! They just call them "electronic gaming devices" instead. But both states word the law where "skill based machines" must allow the player to determine the strategy for the maximum return. And the only way to do this is give the probabilities of all the cards in play. If they don't explicitly do this, the only logical assumption is they all are equal. Which logically means the paytable determines the maximum payback in both Nevada and New Jersey, and if it doesn't then the game is illegal.

Whether NJ machines are set illegally, that's beyond my knowledge.[/QUOTE]This last line in Billiejoe's post      "Changing a VP machine's payback percentage changes it's paytable - I have seen it.    What have you seen exactly???    You actually saw a tech INPUT the payback percentage for a video poker machine, and then the paytable automatically updates/changes its values to correlate with that specific payback%?
[/QUOTE]
NO, what I saw was a tech sitting in front of an IGT VP machine. He was in a 'setup' mode, and was presented with a list from which he could select, for that particular game, a payback percentage. It was a fixed list, in other words, he could not input a number - just make a selection from what was presented him. After he completed his task, I fired up that machine, selected the game that he had been working on, and saw that the paytable values had changed (lower, of course).

[Casino Knight]

Bravo, Billyjoe. The set up window(s), and sub windows all accessible from the players screen, usually operated by a key switch on the outside of the cabinet away from the controller/computer (RNG).

On IGT, I've seen a dozen or more games shown as being available, but as few as one game selected for play. Usually, the most popular, as selected by the games manager.
After selection of the game(s), a sub screen appears where the tech can do a multitude of things including: Set the payback of each game within the minimum allowed by the legal jurisdiction they operate under and the minimum they think they can get away with from their players. Think 6/5 on cruise ship. Don't get me wrong, although not listed as "full pay" it is there as well,+100%, but hardly ever chosen.

In addition, from the set up mode, they can also set the machine for "tournaments" music volume, sticky key testing, maximum "TITO" payouts, Maximum Coins, Speed, Double Up,Progressives, last 10 hands played, just to name a few.

Again, Bravo.
CK

As an aside, the chip/RNG is not readily accessible and has tamper proof tape across it. I learned this after a really big progressive win some time ago, when they basically tore down the machine to verify it was still in place.

[Tedlark]

  Great information CK, thank you for sharing.

[DaBurglar]

   NO, what I saw was a tech sitting in front of an IGT VP machine. He was in a 'setup' mode, and was presented with a list from which he could select, for that particular game, a payback percentage. It was a fixed list, in other words, he could not input a number - just make a selection from what was presented him. After he completed his task, I fired up that machine, selected the game that he had been working on, and saw that the paytable values had changed (lower, of course). First off, thanks for clarification, and for sharing....secondly,  WHY IN HEAVENS NAME HAS THIS NOT BEEN SHARED BEFORE???     This is great info.....I have never actually seen these screens Billyjoo describes here but I have come close, seeing portions of them but never actually getting to witness the entire process and thus all the screens in an order that allowed me to understand or make sense of what I was seeing.....this is all a logical realistic view of what can and does happen on many video poke rmachines.I'm still left with a multitiude of issues and questions, and I am not just referring to my out of bounds statistical play results.    I have been told by casino people in AC and gaming office people that video poker can and is set well into the depths of slot results......now certainly, it is DEFINITELY possible that these people actually are clueless and have no idea what they are talking about (I have conceded this before and other people have pointed it out as well that they have met actual casino managers and execs who didnt know their arse from their eyeball)We also must leave open the possibility that the options and screens billyjoe described are NOT the only screens available or the only way that a machine can be set or adjusted to meet a casino's business needs and goals.