CHEATING the casinos on VP

[Minn. Fatz]

Was it wrong? They didn't bring any outside devices into the casino nor did they try to somehow jimmy with the inner workings of the machines. They simply sat in their seats and pushed the buttons, all of which are freely available to be pushed by players. Do the rules specifically say you can't push the buttons in the following sequence... ? The worst I would hang them for is unjust enrichment --- taking advantage of someone else's misfortune (the bug in the program). They beat the rap because someone on the prosecution side figured out there was no case, or at the very least a case that a savvy defense attorney would quickly blow out of the water.

It'd be a case of angle shooting on the part of the player vs. the casinos' perceived "right" to set up their games so they can't be beaten. Crockfords' case against Phil Ivey for Punto Banco edge sorting just got decided in favor of the casinos, as the UK judge found they probably wouldn't have allowed Ivey and his friend to do what they did had they known what they were doing. His US case--he's the defendant this time along with the playing card manufacturer in a suit brought by Borgata AC--is still pending afaik.

[Minn. Fatz]

Anyone curious as to WHY they never actually print or describe just what EXACTLY the "sequence" of buttons is to make this glitch come to life???    could it be that there are still machines out there which have not been "patched" up with the fix??????


They did, in the illustrations on the margin of the article. Not that it would work for anyone you understand but it went like this:

1. Either find a Game King multidenomination machine with the Double Up feature turned on or get a friendly attendant to turn it on for you. Insert cash and/or voucher.

2. Play some game at the lowest denomination offered until you hit a big hand.

3. WITHOUT CASHING OUT, hit "MORE GAMES" and play some other game until you get any win.

4. Put more cash/another voucher in the machine.

5. Hit "MORE GAMES," change the denomination to the maximum offered and go back to your original game--your big hand is still there, uncashed.

6. Cash out at the higher denomination.

This also apparently works on machines showing big hands some other player may have cashed out; it's a little unclear there.

imo not just walking away from the machine and out of the casino and into another one to find another machine to "repeat until rich" at this point is plain lazy and stupid: you run enough risks that the eye in the sky will nail you the first time.

[Tedlark]

  I am wondering if the casinos who were bilked (in place of cheating) by these two "gentlemen" ever made an action against IGT for the amount of the losses? Maybe these same casinos had insurance for such instances and they were made whole by their own insurance carriers? Maybe IGT's insurance carrier(s)? Maybe the casinos filed an action against the programmer and this programmer had an E/O policy that paid a claim?    IGT knows full well if there are machines out there that have not had the patch installed on it, they can tell this just by comparing serial numbers of the machines that have had the patch installed against a master serial number list showing all of the affected machines.    I think I saw an old episode of Banacek that asked many of these same questions.

[pokerforme]

One of the things that made me laugh were some of the amounts they won...if done correctly you would want to avoid hand pays and W2's. Some of the wins were foolish by the amounts they won when you consider taxes taking a chunk out of the win. The larger wins would still net you large amounts after taxes BUT were a flashing red light with alarm for any casino. Why would you ever pay taxes if you could avoid them. Plus that would be the end of the paper trail and you would be unlinked except for video/photos. They let there own greed get the best of them.

[Tedlark]

One of the things that made me laugh were some of the amounts they won...if done correctly you would want to avoid hand pays and W2's. Some of the wins were foolish by the amounts they won when you consider taxes taking a chunk out of the win. The larger wins would still net you large amounts after taxes BUT were a flashing red light with alarm for any casino. Why would you ever pay taxes if you could avoid them. Plus that would be the end of the paper trail and you would be unlinked except for video/photos. They let there own greed get the best of them.
   Great point. It makes you wonder if they were gambling on other machines and racking up any losses to offset the massive winnings? They HAD to report the winnings because the casinos were, so they were stuck. If they kept the wins low and left greed locked in the closet, maybe they could have gone undetected for much longer.

[DougJ]

My initial reaction to the article was WHY did Kane gamble for so long at the Fremont downtown, and risk detection before trying the scam at different casinos. (which they eventually did do)

Second, I was amazed that a high end property like Wynn could let these two bilk it out of about $225,000 and no one in surveillance was suspicious. Geez, the Silverton (a locals casino) caught on to Kane.

Third, I can recall seeing the "Double Up" feature on most Game King machines at my local casino back in 2009, but I have NOT seen that feature offered in a long time. I never understood why, and maybe this scam was the reason for it.
So, is "double up" still an option out there?

[DaBurglar]

 
They did, in the illustrations on the margin of the article. Not that it would work for anyone you understand but it went like this:

1. Either find a Game King multidenomination machine with the Double Up feature turned on or get a friendly attendant to turn it on for you. Insert cash and/or voucher.

2. Play some game at the lowest denomination offered until you hit a big hand.

3. WITHOUT CASHING OUT, hit "MORE GAMES" and play some other game until you get any win.

4. Put more cash/another voucher in the machine.

5. Hit "MORE GAMES," change the denomination to the maximum offered and go back to your original game--your big hand is still there, uncashed.

6. Cash out at the higher denomination.

This also apparently works on machines showing big hands some other player may have cashed out; it's a little unclear there.

imo not just walking away from the machine and out of the casino and into another one to find another machine to "repeat until rich" at this point is plain lazy and stupid: you run enough risks that the eye in the sky will nail you the first time.Thanks fatz, I somehow missed it......I must say, judging by the incompetence I see in AC and the overall "No one gives a shiiite" attitude in many AC casinos, if anywhere still had the games unfixed, it would be AC!     But there are a lot of games with the double up feature enabled (Resorts has them all enabled, and Trop is close to that level too....Ballys/Caesars/Harrahs AC are all server based so its moot.)    Borgata and GNugget have a mixed bag.

[rascal]

The step by step instructions require actions that ANY decent surveillance associate would catch for a large jackpot. But I can easily see where someone using this system for small wins well under the jackpot level could compile a nice cash ticket at 50 casinos a week in Vegas undetected. It is amazing to me that Kane and the other guy blew this because of greed. Amazing.

[DaBurglar]

Do you remember the Movie "CASINO"  when Robert deniro's character (based on true life exploits of Lefty Rosenthal) spotted the two blackjack cheats and proceeded to terrorize them in the back room?The dialogue was telling, and again it was based on real events:   Robert Deniro's "Sam" character said "these guys would be a lot harder to spot if they were not so GREEDY...but in the end they are ALL greedy".Most security personnel and casino dealers and pit bosses/floormen that I have known and talked to in my lifetime have all said the same thing:  People's greed inevitably gives them away......I am sure all of you have your own stories too, but when I'd hear about some scam or cheating incident, quite often it was the fact that the person(s) PUSHED the scam too far that ultimately ended up getting them caught.The movie Casino took place in the mid 70s through early-mid 80s, and casino security has evolved light years since then, but so have scam artists and cheaters......you can get away with a lot ONE time, maybe even several times....but if you keep doing it you will be caught.

[Tedlark]

Do you remember the Movie "CASINO"  when Robert deniro's character (based on true life exploits of Lefty Rosenthal) spotted the two blackjack cheats and proceeded to terrorize them in the back room?The dialogue was telling, and again it was based on real events:   Robert Deniro's "Sam" character said "these guys would be a lot harder to spot if they were not so GREEDY...but in the end they are ALL greedy".Most security personnel and casino dealers and pit bosses/floormen that I have known and talked to in my lifetime have all said the same thing:  People's greed inevitably gives them away......I am sure all of you have your own stories too, but when I'd hear about some scam or cheating incident, quite often it was the fact that the person(s) PUSHED the scam too far that ultimately ended up getting them caught.The movie Casino took place in the mid 70s through early-mid 80s, and casino security has evolved light years since then, but so have scam artists and cheaters......you can get away with a lot ONE time, maybe even several times....but if you keep doing it you will be caught.


   Fantastic story DaBurglar. I think though that the movie "Casino" was based on events that occurred in the mid 70's and early 80's. The movie didn't take place then. If you like. sometime if you make it to Chicago I can take you on a tour of the cornfield in Indiana where Tony and Michael Spillatro were buried. I can take you on a tour of some other Chicago mob haunts too.