Cedar Point

[FloridaPhil]

Class II video poker machines can usually be identified by two features.  First, they don't have the pay schedule above the cards and second they auto select the cards on the first deal.  Others may have different opinions, but that has been our observation.

[ko king]

ko king, it is unlikely the difference in opinion as to whether VP machines have been changed/tampered with will be settled anytime soon. i have tried to become more knowledgeable and some of the math folks have been VERY GENEROUS, in providing numbers to support the idea, that simply lowering the advertised pay schedule, does indeed make a big difference. there is simply no dispute that reduced payouts for FH and flushes has a big impact on expected and actual results.  like you, olds and others, i am not convinced that something else, may be at work here. i know expected results are different from actual results and there can be variance in the games. most of us play outside of nevada, so i question the level of regulatory oversight in all locales, there seems to be some confusion about whether VP and slot machines have similar rules in some locations and indian casinos, which many play at, who knows what is going on there.   Â Â casinos are being allowed as a tax revenue source and my belief is that is what the states are most concerned about. they want that money and there is little incentive to kill the golden goose.  

Here's all I know and understand when it comes to the casino business. Casinos rely on one thing, money coming into the casino not going out. With increased competition and a slumping economy you can't convince me that some casinos have been forced into finding ways to just maintain incoming revenue. Now that doesn't mean I think they are cheating, that simply means I think they would be interested in finding ways to remain within the constraints of laws and regulations to increase or maintain profits, simply put, they would be no different than any other corporation. Now with that said all machines and programs are obviously man-made so true randomness could never really be achieved, only the appearance or likeness. I don't for one second believe any casino would tamper with a machine without prior approval from those who regulate, I'm almost 100% certain that all programs running were approved, sealed and stamped also. I'm also almost 100% certain that the really, really smart guys in the room are the ones used and employed to separate your dollars from your pocket and if that means they need to increase the size of the bag, fill it with air (to give the appearance you are getting more), put in fewer chips and increase the price that's what they will do. When you've laid off as many employees as you can, cut back on comps and taken every other cost cutting measure you can what's left?

[notes1]

casinos are kind of like a lot of things you buy everyday, same price as years ago, package looks the same, but there is less in it. keep getting less for your money.

[Vman96]

Class II video poker machines can usually be identified by two features.  First, they don't have the pay schedule above the cards and second they auto select the cards on the first deal.  Others may have different opinions, but that has been our observation.

I think I've seen the paytable displayed overhead on one brand of machine before. They all had the autoselect. The biggest thing is seeing a bingo card.





However, as koking gave additional info. It sounded eerily familiar to me. Is it possible that you went to Isle of Capri Lula, koking?

Lula wasn't creepy because it's rigged or anything like that. If it is it would be illegal under MS law. And hell I did LOVE the VP paytables. There are even better games there than what he played. 8/5 Super DDB (99.69%) and 9/6 Bonus Deluxe (99.64%).

Problem was it's a run-down casino (2 mini casinos like you describe) in a rundown area with an Arkansas town 5 minutes away that is ultra creepy.

As a possible visual reminder, read Sunday in my Tunica TR from this summer to read more about the creepiness. Especially the Arkansas town right across the river.

Anniversary Trip to Tunica w/ Actual Tunica Pics

Nicest part of the casino, the common area that was probably remodeled ~recently.



So, if this was the place he went to, 9/7 TDB is definitely there. And should behave randomly barring some gigantic conspiracy theory between IGT and casinos. I also feel like people that seriously believe this to be true should stop playing immediately.

But the way koking started to play the game based on the cards he kept seeing is a bit rough to the return if the machine was random and equally probable (again it must be to be legal in any MS riverboat, floating barge, etc.).

Always holding a 9 with a pair of 5s-Ts, which I think is what he described doing...

Individual error cost at dollars: 85.1 cents
Making this error every time and no other errors lowers the game's return from 99.58% to 98.89%.

And just for fun...

Do it with 5-Ks
Individual error cost at dollars: 71-85.1 cents
Making this error every time and no other errors lowers the game's return from 99.58% to 98.54%.

Do it with any pair but Aces.
Individual error cost at dollars: 71-231 cents
Making this error every time and no other errors lowers the game's return from 99.58% to 97.44%.

Holding "blocker" cards tends to hurt EV quite a bit, assuming your standard machine, which most (if not all) of Mississippi SHOULD be. But that all assumes casinos don't break the law.

[ko king]

[QUOTE=FloridaPhil] Class II video poker machines can usually be identified by two features.  First, they don't have the pay schedule above the cards and second they auto select the cards on the first deal.  Others may have different opinions, but that has been our observation.

I think I've seen the paytable displayed overhead on one brand of machine before. They all had the autoselect. The biggest thing is seeing a bingo card.





However, as koking gave additional info. It sounded eerily familiar to me. Is it possible that you went to Isle of Capri Lula, koking?

Lula wasn't creepy because it's rigged or anything like that. If it is it would be illegal under MS law. And hell I did LOVE the VP paytables. There are even better games there than what he played. 8/5 Super DDB (99.69%) and 9/6 Bonus Deluxe (99.64%).

Problem was it's a run-down casino (2 mini casinos like you describe) in a rundown area with an Arkansas town 5 minutes away that is ultra creepy.

As a possible visual reminder, read Sunday in my Tunica TR from this summer to read more about the creepiness. Especially the Arkansas town right across the river.

Anniversary Trip to Tunica w/ Actual Tunica Pics

Nicest part of the casino, the common area that was probably remodeled ~recently.



So, if this was the place he went to, 9/7 TDB is definitely there. And should behave randomly barring some gigantic conspiracy theory between IGT and casinos. I also feel like people that seriously believe this to be true should stop playing immediately.

But the way koking started to play the game based on the cards he kept seeing is a bit rough to the return if the machine was random and equally probable (again it must be to be legal in any MS riverboat, floating barge, etc.).

Always holding a 9 with a pair of 5s-Ts, which I think is what he described doing...

Individual error cost at dollars: 85.1 cents
Making this error every time and no other errors lowers the game's return from 99.58% to 98.89%.

And just for fun...

Do it with 5-Ks
Individual error cost at dollars: 71-85.1 cents
Making this error every time and no other errors lowers the game's return from 99.58% to 98.54%.

Do it with any pair but Aces.
Individual error cost at dollars: 71-231 cents
Making this error every time and no other errors lowers the game's return from 99.58% to 97.44%.

Holding "blocker" cards tends to hurt EV quite a bit, assuming your standard machine, which most (if not all) of Mississippi SHOULD be. But that all assumes casinos don't break the law. [/QUOTE]

You got it, not sure if that water fall/wishing well is new or not but I found it to be quite ugly, I stopped to look at it and couldn't help but notice what looked like a lot of players cards along with other things thrown into it, which seems to be the case every time I see one of these structures. Now back to my comments concerning not so much this casino but the industry in general as I'm not singling out or picking on this lone casino. In fact I found the place to be very clean and the employees some of the nicest people I have ever ran into, can't say that about every casino I have ever been to. If you have ever paid any attention to my post (not that I ever say anything worth paying attention to) you will see I never use the words cheating or rigged. I prefer to use terms like habits or tendencies and have plainly stated I don't believe any casino would blatantly cheat or tamper with machines. My problem is I have a great distrust for most of the corporate world and politics also as they have proven over and over again they have no problem blurring and skirting the lines in place to guide them along, why would the casino industry be any different? I mean look even Billy Joe alluded to the possibility that the newer RNG's may be more random which to me only suggest that the older RNG's were less random, then comes the question as to who said they weren't as random, I always thought random is random, no room for error there. I was also told by someone (can't remember who) that there are several approved RNG programs not just one, don't know about you but 1 approved program seems like more than enough. Anyway at the risk of making this post way too long I'll introduce a few tidbits to support my way thinking when it comes to "habits" and "tendencies" of vp machines and different casinos. For years I had a favorite casino, always packed got to know a couple very well as they were there every time I went. Now I didn't play as much as this couple but I hit my share of royal flushes there every year, they said they averaged around 50 per year between themselves and I believed them as I saw them both hit plenty. The casino took the machines out and replaced them all and guess what happened, the royals disappeared like a fart in the wind. The place was still packed and we were all playing the stew out of the machines but we just couldn't hit the royals. Eventually all the familiar faces began to disappear, got tired of trying. Now I continued to play there because it was close to my location and I'm kind of a creature of habit, I managed to survive by hitting all the other hands on a good schedule, never lost a ton of money. After a while though another casino opened up closer to my home so I began to play there, low and behold the royals came back, a hand that I had learned to ignore and live without at the other casino. After the new machines were introduced I only had 2 royals in 10 years, hit 7 at the new casino my first year, hit 7 my second year and to this day I continue to hit royals at an expected rate. I've also had 4 dealt royals at that casino in about 6 years of play. Now if I was the only one who experienced this it could be easily ignored but I wasn't, there were others, several who will tell you the same thing. So what's different, I sure don't have the answer but there's not a doubt in my mind that it is.

[Vman96]

It's definitely hard to say why your results have mostly taken a nose drive other than possibly running really hot in the past and now you're mostly running the opposite. Or it's due to a reason that I would rather hope is not actually happening. That reason would be casinos are actually breaking state law.

As for myself, I've played in Tunica too infrequently to have any strong feeling against the way the machines should function. But if I get a royal cycle of hands in in one year, that's a good number of hands for me. All my results can still be chalked up to expected variance.   

[olds442jetaway]

I hear you on the no Royal story below. I completely gave up on them at Mohegan. Luckily, for 2015, for the most part, deuces quads are bailing me out. I don't count anymore, but I think I am back up to the 700k range without a Royal. See my post in a few minutes about the latest Mohegan trip.

[ko king]

It's definitely hard to say why your results have mostly taken a nose drive other than possibly running really hot in the past and now you're mostly running the opposite. Or it's due to a reason that I would rather hope is not actually happening. That reason would be casinos are actually breaking state law.

As for myself, I've played in Tunica too infrequently to have any strong feeling against the way the machines should function. But if I get a royal cycle of hands in in one year, that's a good number of hands for me. All my results can still be chalked up to expected variance.   


Vman I certainly hope you don't think I'm trying to sway your confidence and trust in the game or any casino because that's not my goal. I'm only passing along MY thoughts, beliefs and experiences from over 20 years of uninterrupted play. See I trust no one when it comes to money, no one! What's that old saying "I believe nothing I hear and only half of what I see", that pretty much sums up my thoughts on the gaming business. On one side of the isle you have government on the other corporate entities, neither one has given me much reason to place my complete trust and faith in. In the end though how could anyone prove the industry was or wasn't 100% clean? I know most would say "then why do you play", my answer would simply be because I still love the game, even if they may or may not have deflated the ball to gain an advantage.

[Vman96]

Well a lot of my confidence still stems from the fact that many states have bothered to write laws that generally say the same thing over and over. Also a vast majority of casinos use igt for VP, which I have more faith in as a gaming company. I feel like they have a lot to lose if it was proven that the machines don't work like they should. And the way most casino floors are set for VP and slots today, they are definitely winning in the end, just not as much as they used to because too many places allow gambling now. Casino supply outweighs demand unfortunately. Especially for video poker. :(

[notes1]

when it comes to trusting anyone or anything, i am with KO. and, it is not just limited to  money. does 'we will be welcome into iraq with open arms' or 'keep your plan-keep your doctor-save $2500 per family', ring a bell?   if one wanted to build a large operation in most any state in america, you would be offered all kinds of incentives, including tax abatements. but, not casinos. a casino needs to pay an upfront fee just to be considered and agree to a substantial tax (kickback) to the state. these state taxes are as much as 33% in ohio and maryland has some casino taxes over 50%. i do not know how these taxes are computed, but they certainly take a bite out of what the casinos are going to pay us back, for every dollar wagered. i think we often forget this when we wonder why it costs more to gamble. and, we have not even started with all the fixed costs it takes to operate these mega properities.     let's face it, casinos are not being allowed to provide a form of entertainment, that the public has asked for. they are considered a revenue source for governments or tribal members. i know nevada has lower taxes, but for most, they are simply going to gamble at the nearest location.  as far as the integity of a casino goes, they are no different than most any other business, their main objective is to stay in business and make a profit. they will do anything that the law allows, anything that regulators will allow them to get away with. if the very people who are supposed to watch over the casinos are essentially getting paid by the existence of the casino and some use their governemnt connections as a stepping stone to get hired by the very companies they are regulating, there is a conflict of interest. and, if the states are dependent upon the casinos for a portion of the money they need to bribe voters, are they likely to kill the goose, that is providing them that money.       i have asked before and i will ask again, name another occupation or industry that has not broken the law. yet, i have not heard of any casinos having their license taken away, for any reason other than financial, never a rules violation.   and, like KO, just because i find problems within the industry, does not mean i want to give up playing the game i enjoy so much, i simply want it improved.