Maybe for laugh and maybe not..)

[BobDancer]

Post unable to migrate

[DaBurglar]

This is the truth, Tribes indeed are "sovereign nations" insofar as their casino business is concerned anyway.BUT, let's look at the bigger picture here because obviousl Bob, as a "pro gambler", has a pretty narrow spectrum on this issue, and I really cannot blame him for that since this is his chosen livelihood......Native American tribes are some of the more tragic figures in American History.......but not as tragic as some others try to make them out to be.......for centuries before white people showed up, the North (and south) american indians fought with each other, conquered and enslaved rival tribes, and lived lives that arguably were not that much more "moral" than European settlers who arrived later.     But the Indians were subsequently ravaged by disease and alcohol, two things which simply did not exist in their world prior to europeans showing up.    Also, they were the victims of much aggression and broken promises on the part of greedy, amoral white people.   Today's casinos are meant to be, in part "payback" of sorts for all this past tragedy and misery.Do I like it or agree with it?   I honestly do not know, I am torn right down the middle.   I agree the Native Americans deserved SOMETHING substantial, but why did it always have to be a casino?   How come we could not give a tribe somewhere money to build a college campus, a thing which over time will turn into a good steady source of income since college towns usually prosper.But having seen the last decade-plus how the two largest and most successful native american casinos operate (foxwoods and Mohegan) an hour away from my house, I do know that THEY know they must act and behave reasonably otherwise people will walk.    Therefore, NOT all Tribal councils are the biased absurdities that Bobo Dancer describes.    I would submit, you more than likely will get a fair shake so long as you do not sabotage your own case by screaming racial or cultural insults or something......

[notes1]

i was pretty confident what the attorney was implying. bond holders have had trouble collecting debts from indian casinos, in US courts, for the very reasons dancer states, about tribal sovereignty. so here is the question. if indian casinos basically write their own laws, decide which ones they will abide, why is it out of the realm of possibility that machine games at indian casinos are not rigged?  

[BobDancer]

   so here is the question. if indian casinos basically write their own laws, decide which ones they will abide, why is it out of the realm of possibility that machine games at indian casinos are not rigged?  Legitimate question. Hard to answer definitely.IGT's programming is "sealed." Replacing IGT's "innards" with some of your own that doesn't look noticeably different is not a simple task. I'm not enough of a techy to address this definitely.I've played at a number of Indian casinos in Southern California. The machines "seem" okay to me. My results have been within reasonable limits. I will continue to play there with the right promotions.You always have players complaining about their results or that machines are "unfair." Usually I take these complaints with a grain of salt. Some people are born complainers. Some people aren't very skillful players. Some people don't understand normal cycles of video poker machines.I have not noticed significantly more people complaining about video poker at tribal casinos than I have at non-tribal casinos. If that ever begins to happen, possibly I'll rethink whether the machines are fair.Nersesian was speaking about something different. Like:        1.   What if you were counting cards, ahead $10,000 in addition to the $6,000 starter capital you came with, and when you tried to redeem the $16,000, the chips were confiscated and the casino tells you it doesn't like how you won the money? In a tribal casino, you might never see that money.         2.    In a recent case in Michigan, players were hole-carding a sloppy dealer. In Nevada, after the Einbinder case, it's established law that if a dealer flashes a card and you see it, you're not doing anything wrong. A Michigan tribal court decided used a variation of the Justice Potter rule "I know cheating when I see it" and decided the players should not be paid.         3.    What if a player were taken into custody by tribal police for the crime of winning? Handcuffed, wallet gone through and relevant information copied down, and perhaps roughed up a little. In a non-tribal court, the player will likely get a six-figure settlement from such treatment. In a tribal court, the player may get his wallet back. His name and likeness reported to various agencies who report that information to casinos far and wide.           If you're a quarter video poker player, there's a good chance you'll be just fine at these places. If you play for $5 and larger stakes, maybe you'll be fine, maybe not           

[notes1]

responding to dancer, i/m/o, a very fair answer.   the one comment i question, is regarding the casinos ability to change/reprogram/tamper with the 'innards'. i would accept this, if machines were being inspected by a trusted third party. but, what inspections are being done of indian machines, other than indian regulators. and, as you mentioned, do they want to find problems and eat mac/cheese or eat steak.  again, i think you gave a fair appraisal, but, at the very least, you are noting, you do not know for sure.  

[FAA]

So glad to avoid all this tribal drama in my area!

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=BobDancer]If you're a quarter video poker player, there's a good
chance you'll be just fine at these places. If you play for $5 and
larger stakes, maybe you'll be fine, maybe not[/quote]I've been playing video poker in Florida ever since they moved to class III machines and have had no indication that they play any differently than the rest of the country. In addition, I have never seen a rigged video poker machine and honestly don't think they exist.  With most quarter odds averaging around 96-98%, they don't need to rig anything.  I wonder if Bob Dancer has ever seen one?

[BobDancer]

It's not so much the machines themselves that worry the players. It's the procedures and promotions.For example, a strong player (not me) was invited to the Cosmopolitan in Las Vegas for a table game tournament. To play in this tournament (worth maybe $10,000 in EV to this player), you had to play "regular" casino games and generate a "theoretical" of, perhaps, $12,000.Okay. He saw the rules when he got there, decided that playing video poker was the best source for his theoretical, and cycled $200,000 coin-in through the machines, generating the requisite theo. He played a game where he had about a negative $6,000 expectation --- which was okay with him because he was gaining entry into a lucrative tournament --- plus RFB at a new casino with several tempting high-end restaurants.After he played, the Cosmo told him that he was too strong a player and retracted his RFB and his invitation to the tournament. My friend immediately called Gaming, who sent an agent out. After listening to the evidence, the gaming agent quietly "suggested" to the Cosmo that they should let the guy play the tournament. If they wanted to restrict him afterwards, they could. The Cosmo let him play.At a tribal casino, there is no gaming commission to call. The guy would have been SOL --- after playing a significant amount at a negative-EV game based on an invitation from the casino.If you want to argue that you're only a quarter video poker player and such things are unlikely to happen to you --- you're probably right. You have no chance at winning enough to get the casino really upset at you. But this is not true of bigger winning players. It's hard enough to win at these casinos. Getting the money out of the casino once you've won it is tougher at tribal casinos.

[Chicagoan]

I totally agree with Dancer. Indian casinos are self-regulated by the Indian Gaming Commission. They are not subject to state gaming commission regulations. We have only their say-so that their machines are legit. I have played at Indian casinos a few times. Some seem completely fair. Others, I don't know --- the machines seemed fishy. Now I only play at state-regulated casinos. My understanding is that Nevada and Mississippi are the two strongest regulated states in the nation, for casinos.

[ko king]

I totally agree with Dancer. Indian casinos are self-regulated by the Indian Gaming Commission. They are not subject to state gaming commission regulations. We have only their say-so that their machines are legit. I have played at Indian casinos a few times. Some seem completely fair. Others, I don't know --- the machines seemed fishy. Now I only play at state-regulated casinos. My understanding is that Nevada and Mississippi are the two strongest regulated states in the nation, for casinos.


Mississippi huh, I've been playing there for well over 20 years and haven't seen the first person from GC in years, not a one. Now Arkansas on the hand you can't miss them, they're on site 24 hours a day 7 days a week. I've heard that Mississippi was supposed to be tightly regulated and I believe they were at one time, now I'm not so sure anymore.