how low can VP go?

[Carcounter]

I still enjoy the casino experience. I have no beef with 10/6 DDB, but you will not find it in AC. The Double Joker .25 progressives at Caesars are probably the best consistent play in AC, reset at 99.91% and go up from there. But in a smokey area with your typical low rollers. Hope I don't offend anyone, but not a comfortable environment. Oh and one more thing, last time I was there, maybe a month ago, a furry animal ran right under the bank of machines. Couldn't tell if it was a mouse or a rat but decided it was time to cash out.

[ko king]

i ask this question, without having a good solution. i have been playing for about 10 years and my game of choice is quarter DDB. when i started, it was common to see machines with 9/6 and 9/5 paytables. now, i go to a variety of casinos on the east coast and full pay is 8/5, but there are plenty of 7/5 and even 6/5 machines. on top of that, i used to get a generous amount of comp dollars. it was normal for my wife to spend a couple of hundred dollars shopping with comps, every couple of trips. now, i need to run 6-8k thru a machine to get a free buffet. the last time i went, i could not believe the number of folks playing 1 and 2 coins. no facts to support, but it seemed like 20-30% were playing less than max. and often, there were two players using one machine with reduced bets.  i am well aware of the effects of the recession and states wanting to increase revenues by bringing casinos to their area. but, i am wondering what consumers can do. in my business, consumers used to pay hundreds of dollars to make a stock trade, now it is a lot cheaper. american made cars used to be terrible, consumers revolted by buying foreign brands, and american cars eventually improved. the interenet has driven down prices and the consumer has benefited. when it comes to VP, the situation only seems to worsen. in most areas of the country, casinos are not operating in the free market. some folks love the idea of government regulations, thinking they protect us, but is it really stifling competition? most areas have limited the number of properties, made agreements with tribes, with the main concern being the government gets their guaranteed cut.  what can be done to give players a better value? in most other areas of the economy, the consumer is getting more, but not in the casino. why? 

Let me tell you, I have always played 9/6 DDB, 9/7 and 9/6 TDB, there are casinos in this area with poor pay tables like you said, I don't play them, never did. The pay tables pretty mean squat anymore. The problem is the premium hands occur less frequent now days. I only know of one casino near to my location that pay tables seem to still matter, the other 12 casinos in this area crap all over the advertised pay tables, that's why they have been losing players in droves. That one casino I mentioned is the only one I really trust and it stays packed so it stands to reason that many other players trust them also. Here's something else that stands out in a huge way. I've been playing at the other casinos for about 20 years and I've never once seen anyone wearing a gaming regulation badge, not one single time in 20 years. Every single time I go to the other casino I will see at least 1 member of the gaming regulation on site, on the weekend you might see more. Every single hand pay/jackpot that is hit requires a gaming regulator to witness the payout and record l of the information including, machine number, type of wager, game played, denomination and machine number. You cannot and will not be paid until a regulator is there to witness the event. I also see them checking rows of machines on a regular basis. I don't trust the majority of casinos in my area anymore, looking at the dropping number of players present there I suspect that many other folks feel the same exact way. Despite the recession I suspect many players would be willing to gamble just like they used to but so many have lost faith. I for one don't even consider playing like I did for 17 years running, the cost of playing has gone up considerably despite playing the same pay tables. I did hear an interesting suggestion from a guy on the cruise I just got back from. I can't remember where he said he was from, maybe Maine, Anyway the guy said he played a lot of vp and it had gotten really bad for him, he just couldn't hit the premium hands like he used to, sounds familiar to me. Anyway he brought up the fact that the casino/casinos were having a rough time and had now petitioned the state to allow them to drop the minimal payback percentage on slots. His idea or thought was that maybe it's time to bring casino gaming to the internet, very little overhead and it would be very easy to regulate. I've never really been a fan of the idea but listening to him I think he may be right. I shiver at the thought of how many folks would lose their jobs which is a definite negative aspect but the possible positive effects may outweigh the loss. People would no longer need to drive to casinos which would not only cut down on fuel consumption but save lives, reduce the number of drunk and pissed off drivers on the road. Less waste to dispose of, less energy used in general, pretty much less of everything. I guess you could still have a few casinos if folks wanted the total real life experience but it would sure force the real life casinos to compete instead of what we have now which seems to be a race to the bottom.

[notes1]

don't know if the internet is the answer, although before the bush administration shut down most online gaming, i played for about a year and made money. but, something needs to be done to shake up the gaming industry. nothing is pushing them to provide a better experience to the players. if they get less customers, they just lower the paytables, cut the comps or whatever else they can get away with. i asked a long time ago, why no one has come along with a chain of wal mart/costco type properties. if folks do not want to pay mall prices, they can go to a dollar store or some other discount place. or, they can shop at amazon. but, casino options are very restricted, without travelling, for many of us. forget the multi billion dollar properties with the spas, the 5 star chefs, the fountains and all the glitz. i have been in dozens of casinos and the average player is in the 50-70's and many look like they would play in their underwear if allowed. those who want the high end place can go to Wynn, but most are just looking for a safe, clean, fair place with decent entertainment value. my guess is these low cost places have no chance of getting approved in many areas, because the local government can not get the tax kick back they desire.

[ko king]

don't know if the internet is the answer, although before the bush administration shut down most online gaming, i played for about a year and made money. but, something needs to be done to shake up the gaming industry. nothing is pushing them to provide a better experience to the players. if they get less customers, they just lower the paytables, cut the comps or whatever else they can get away with. i asked a long time ago, why no one has come along with a chain of wal mart/costco type properties. if folks do not want to pay mall prices, they can go to a dollar store or some other discount place. or, they can shop at amazon. but, casino options are very restricted, without travelling, for many of us. forget the multi billion dollar properties with the spas, the 5 star chefs, the fountains and all the glitz. i have been in dozens of casinos and the average player is in the 50-70's and many look like they would play in their underwear if allowed. those who want the high end place can go to Wynn, but most are just looking for a safe, clean, fair place with decent entertainment value. my guess is these low cost places have no chance of getting approved in many areas, because the local government can not get the tax kick back they desire.

I'm not certain the internet is the answer myself, I was just introducing a few good and bad points. I do know Harry Reid's has been pushing for internet casinos for many years on behalf of casino owners, that makes me question the whole idea since I can't stand the man. I brought up the idea you mention a long time ago, I would love to see a casino open up that was nothing but the bare essentials, I don't need all that other crap. Build me a big building, that just has a sign that says Bare Bones Casino, nothing but the best gaming nothing extra. Put a machine in front of me with good pay tables, fair gaming, a chair to sit in and a safe environment. I'll even pay for my beer if I want one. Think about it, there's no doubt someone somewhere has thought about doing it but there is obviously something standing in the way. I got a kick out of discovering who was really behind the fight to keep the casino nearest to my home from ever opening up, it was the big casinos already up and running. After years of fighting to keep it from ever happening it was finally brought up for a vote by citizens of this state and was approved my a huge margin. That casino was a tiny little place when it first opened but they are beating the brakes off their competition. No doubt if I tried to open up the Bare Bones Casino that once tiny local casino would put up the biggest fight.

[notes1]

feel the same as you about the nevada senator. anytime i see him, it is like having an army of ants crawling over me. you bring up a good point, what or who is standing in the way of a chain of 'locals' type casinos? any time i hear folks talking about the best places to play in vegas, it is never about the strip casinos. but, the strip type casinos are the only ones that seem to get the licenses to build the new properties around the country. i am sure there are some/many who get tired of me going on about the government involvement in the gaming business, but i really believe that is the problem. granting a single company or tribe the right to operate a business as a monopoly and basing that license on who gives the government the most kick back, almost guarantees a poor value to the end user. 

[ko king]

feel the same as you about the nevada senator. anytime i see him, it is like having an army of ants crawling over me. you bring up a good point, what or who is standing in the way of a chain of 'locals' type casinos? any time i hear folks talking about the best places to play in vegas, it is never about the strip casinos. but, the strip type casinos are the only ones that seem to get the licenses to build the new properties around the country. i am sure there are some/many who get tired of me going on about the government involvement in the gaming business, but i really believe that is the problem. granting a single company or tribe the right to operate a business as a monopoly and basing that license on who gives the government the most kick back, almost guarantees a poor value to the end user. 

Let's take a brief moment to derail the thread and talk about how old honest Harry Reid got his reputation for being a straight shooter because it's such a joke. Early in his career he sat up a sting operation on someone who was said to have offered him a bribe to help out on some kind of a deal. All the agents were in place and prepared to put the guy cuffs once Reid got him to offer up the bribe again. The guy makes the bribe (seems like it was for $500) and the agents spring into action and cuff the guy, tough guy Harry Reid then goes into his act of trying to get at the guy while there were plenty of people there to hold him back. Here's my take on the story, Reid is a scumbag, the measly bribe offended him and he recognized the opportunity to garner all kinds of attention and gain himself a reputation for being a straight line no bs type of man, he is a pretender to the throne. He's just another disgusting life long politician who has mastered the art of deception. Him and his son got caught up in a scam involving some land and some Chinese investors, they were all guilty as all get out but the story was covered up as best as possible, him and his son walked away without even a slap on the wrist.

Now back to our previous program concerning casinos and government involvement. Money and power are the key words when it comes to anything concerning government at both the federal and state levels. Almost every single law or regulation proposed or passed leaves a money trail, follow the money and you will discover the real story behind the scene. The entire political system is polluted and corrupt, you have the money you gain access to the real power, our elected officials. Now that's not to say they're all corrupt but it sure is strange to look at almost every single politicians wealth before entering office and their wealth after a few years in office. They somehow manage to make millions on salaries of around $150K per year. Insider trading is huge among our elected officials and when an effort was made to stop the practice it was voted down in a huge way by both Democrats and Republicans, you and I would go to prison for things they do on a daily basis. You have people on this site who will attack you for even mentioning the possibility that some vp may be a little different. They will point to a set of regulations as if that is all that is needed to keep all things on the up and up, I think it's a total joke. Any regulation is only as good as the people who are supposed to be enforcing it and we've already went over who and what these people are about, money and power. You got money you can buy favors from people with power, looking the other way and diverting attention is part of the game they play. I honestly believe so much of the vp and slots offered up in the casinos around this area has been allowed to stray a tad away from the written in stone regulations. Maybe it's not direct involvement from the few who's job it is to insure the integrity of the games, but more of a just look the other way, kind of a Sargent Schultz type of deal, "I know nothing". I can walk up to a set of vp machines and see the machine offers up an advertised payback percentage of 99.58% and know it no longer really means much of anything. I'm going to finish the year at around 95% payback regardless of how many years I've played and my knowledge of the game. It's like buying a bag of chips at the store, the bag looks big and full of chips but when I open it up all the air rushes out of the bag and there's really not that many chips in the bag, that's our video poker, open it up and it's just a bunch of air.

[FAA]

the machine offers up an advertised payback percentage of 99.58% and
know it no longer really means much of anything. I'm going to finish the
year at around 95% payback regardless of years played and knowledge. It's like buying a bag of chips,
the bag looks big and full but when I open it up all the air
rushes out and there's really not that many chips in the bag,
that's our video poker, open it up and it's just a bunch of air.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Interesting metaphor. I have days when I can't win and days I can't lose. I haven't taken great records. So I'll have to wait for my casino reports to form an assessment. I've really enjoyed the ride for the most part, even on boring JOB. 95% is pretty bad, now that I run the numbers! I hope against hope I don't come in that low.

[ko king]

the machine offers up an advertised payback percentage of 99.58% and
know it no longer really means much of anything. I'm going to finish the
year at around 95% payback regardless of years played and knowledge. It's like buying a bag of chips,
the bag looks big and full but when I open it up all the air
rushes out and there's really not that many chips in the bag,
that's our video poker, open it up and it's just a bunch of air.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Interesting metaphor. I have days when I can't win and days I can't lose. I haven't taken great records. So I'll have to wait for my casino reports to form an assessment. I've really enjoyed the ride for the most part, even on boring JOB. 95% is pretty bad, now that I run the numbers! I hope against hope I don't come in that low.
   





Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, best I can tell from some of your previous post you play small denomination and use a fairly small bankroll. Please don't take any of that as an insult, in fact it's the smart thing to do, it's dummies like me that never learn. For 17 years running I played mostly $2 denomination DDB and TDB always at max play. I would take $3K to the casino for the day and kept pretty darn good records of my play. My bankroll had to supplemented on occasions due to the dry spells associated with playing the games I chose to play, but for the most part I was well pleased with my results, I really had no reason to complain, I always ended up around the expected outcome for the game. There was actually only one year I ended up ahead for the year playing vp, not a lot, but I beat the game that year. I had a few years that I came real close to being a winner for the year but December tripped me up and I ended up coming out a very small loser for that year. I remember one year I was getting destroyed, I had lost 13 trips to the casino in a row, couldn't hit crap, lost a little over $30K during that stretch and was down about $36K for the year going into November. I finally hit a good roll and got back a nice chunk of my losses, still finished about $16K down for the year. The following year or years everything just kind of stayed steady, my losses for all hose years never even came close to my worst year. I ended up catching a progressive $1 slot machine on my way out of the door one year so my overall losses for all the years I had played thus far were easily covered. All in all up until 2011 the advertised pay tables for the games I played pretty much rang true, one year a little below, another year a little above, I completely trusted the system and the games. When 2011 came along the wheels fell off the bus, even though I was still playing the same games and the same pay tables I couldn't come close to the advertised payback percentages. Every single year since then I end up in the 95% range, no exceptions, no real changes. Early this year I got sick of trying to play the same way I had for 17 years, it just wasn't working out anymore and I don't believe it can. I dropped down to playing only $1 denomination, same games, same pay tables. And it's been no real surprise, same weak anemic video poker as before, I'll end up this year in the same boat, around 95% payback if not slightly below. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the best casino we have in these parts builds a no smoking section so I can play there more often and avoid the cigar smoke. If the no smoking section doesn't come I may end dropping down to playing .25 cent denomination. The games are so very different around here now, the days you can't lose are super rare, most days you can't hit squat. There's just not that many people willing to play higher denomination around here anymore and I think that has a negative effect on all the idiots like myself, no real money going into the machines so it stands to reason no real money is going to come out of them despite what the statistics say.

[notes1]

kk, always enjoy your posts. never knew the background story about reid, just know he is more of a liar than most politicians. regarding the current state of VP machines, i have no problem with those who want to believe everthing is on the up and up, but i take offense when those same folks don't show the same respect for a differing opinion. i have no doubt the majority of corporate america and government is abiding by the law, but how many cases of coruption, lies, waste, fraud, favortism does one need to see, to just blindly believe that players are being protected. my bigger concern is not just what is being done illegally, but what is happening out in the open. awarding protected casino zones to the highest bidder, comes at the expense of players. every casino patron should be concerned, those tax kick backs are being paid by us. these high taxes are a big reason why nevada has better paytables.

[FAA]

KK, guilty as charged. No offense taken. The Chump Change Chacha afforded by CS has mercifully kept any one visit loss manageable. VP is a very democratic game, exciting for all bankrolls as it engages the mind. In fact, if I was a true disciple playing one coin instead of two, I'd be even better off. It will be so gratifying to finally wise up and briefly bump up to dollars if I've had a good day and the current machine is hot. If the machine is generous, I would hope that continues when I quadruple the denomination. Your progressive dollar slot jackpot sounds like nirvana. That will assuredly absorb more losing than a Bounty factory! It's not so bad here. I can have at least a break even session almost every time if I don't lose my mind in Greed mode. Strike while the iron is hot. More importantly, unplug it when it goes cold!