How do multi hand games affect variance

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=alpax]However, the downside of multi line games aside from the lower pay tables is that every play errors are magnified.
[/quote]I don't play multi line games myself, but I understand their appeal.   I can see how variance is reduced by these games, but isn't your total money at risk also increased?  Assuming a negative game and as pointed out here the odds on these games are downgraded, doesn't this also increase your long term loses by a factor of the number of hands played?  Of course Mr. Dancer says he always plays overall positive games, so he assumes he will be a winner.  For your average player, I'm not so sure.  Negative is negative and more negative just seems to make matters worse.The subject of comps is interesting.  If I played 10 hands at once, it's obvious I would build points 10 times faster.  So far the only thing I have seen from comps is free parking, hotel rooms and some food.  I'm curious what a casino could give me that would be valuable enough to play 10 hands at once?   I also assume some multi line players on this forum are betting much more than quarters. 

[FAA]

isn't your total money at risk also increased?  Assuming a negative game
and the odds on these games are downgraded, doesn't
this also increase your long term losses by a factor of the number of
hands played?  Negative is negative and more negative just
seems to make matters worse.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Correct, boss. Single line play is painful enough. I add more spice nowadays with a higher denom, still at at max odds.

[FloridaPhil]

I know many players prefer these games.  I can see how a professional would as they magnify their edge while lowering the variance.  What possible advantage would there be in playing a multi line negative expectation game?    If you just want to get as much action in as possible and don't care about the cost, I can see it.  Otherwise it seems to me they make a bad situation worse.

[onemoretry]

I don't play multi line games myself, but I understand their appeal.   I can see how variance is reduced by these games, but isn't your total money at risk also increased?
It depends how you approach it. Yes, if you are playing single line quarters and decide to go ten line quarters instead, you are risking more.

But, if you are comfortable with a $10 a play wager, you could choose to play single line $2, or multiline for somewhat less per hand, but the same total bet, say 40 lines of 5c, for example. In that case, the $10 wager has a lot less variance.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=onemoretry]But, if you are comfortable with a $10 a play wager, you could choose to
play single line $2, or multiline for somewhat less per hand, but the
same total bet, say 40 lines of 5c, for example. In that case, the $10
wager has a lot less variance.
[/quote]Makes sense assuming the 40 play nickel odds are the same as the $2 single line odds.  Right?

[olds442jetaway]

It appears keeping the total amount bet the same as a single line game is the key. I am just very lucky that I found a Bonus Deuces Wild game at Mohegan where I can play a dollar a line and have a 98.8 paytable. It does cost me 3 bucks a whack which isn't cheap, but quite often I was playing 12 or more quarters on a single line game at Mohegan Sun and hitting nothing over the course of the evening. So far, playing this game, I have either made something or broke even for the session. The quad deuces have appeared at some point in the session every time so far. Sometimes even the 5 Aces come in and pay more than the single quad deuce hit for the session. That has bailed me out too. Edited to add....the fact that the casinos reduce the paytables on multi line games at least for me confirms that in the short run, an average player can survive a session much better and not go broke than on a single line game most of the time.

[olds442jetaway]

Playing a single line bonus deuces wild game with a 98.8 paytable, I can expect to hit the quad deuces in the long run once every 7042 hands, quad deuces with the ace every 38461 hands, and 5 aces every 3021 hands. These are pretty much the only hits other than the Royal that will allow me to stay in the game close to even or maybe even make something. Am I simplifying things too much by assuming on a 3 line spin poker game instead of 1 line that I should hit the above premium hands 3 times as often as a single line game? So far, playing for a month or more now, these hands have kept me in the game on a session that runs 8 hours or so and playing the 3 lines the entire time. My total session hands because of the 3 lines are now running between 12k and 15k hands. At a buck a line, I should be losing around 200 bucks a session in the long run. Guess I have just been lucky so far. At any rate, if I do start losing that much, the free play, room comps, gifts, free gas and food ( no pun intended there ) will definitely outweigh the 200 buck loss. Of course if and when they yank that machine, I am back to the drawing board on finding out what to do.

[alpax]

Alpax,
thanks for the great information. For those of us who play multi-line (hooked on it) the partial return does make a difference in longevity most of the time. We are lucky

Coushatta provides 98% range multi-hand on all denominations of 2¢ and above on its 50/100 play. As stated in your TDB quiz we have regulars who only play TDB 50/100 play and

usually do quite well on 9/6. A quad/K can make a huge difference especially when the variance/volatility has been lessened.

Thanks for your efforts to make us better players.   

Here's hoping for you Ted.

You are welcome Double L, I am glad I was able to help some folks understand the dynamics of multiline video poker a little better. Mr. Dancer has also provided much useful

information about them in the past as well, but I was not sure where people got lost in translation. The most intimidating part that I do not blame most people for is the

wager sizes. It is hard to find a decent multiline game without sacrificing the payout, and it is hard to find the places that carry the right combination of denomination

(nickels/dimes/quarters) and well as number of lines (it comes in 3/5/10/25/50/100) that people are comfortable with based on their bankroll.

If people pay close attention to your and Vman's trip reports, the number of lines can also be customized on the specialty games too. Just bet 5 credits without pushing MAX to

enable the bonus feature (e.g. 5 instead of 6 on Super Times Pay, though the 6th credit is a benefit, on a 5-Play STP, selecting 4 lines is also possible).

Some folks are jealous (including me!) about the multiline games you and Sweet C have access to playing at the Coushatta. Phil might find joy in playing
50 lines of 98.91% Ugly Ducks/Airport Decues Wild at 2 cents denomination, he can play much longer than $1 single line with the same bankroll. And the wagers will be the same.

As for TDB, it has become the hot topic over the past week. I do not think KK expected things to turn out the way it did with that story of holding the kicker. The saving grace of that game is the premium quads, with more than one chance at getting them on the draw. Although the theoretical return of 9/6 TDB is 98.15% and players are expected to lose in the long run, hitting those quads can put a player ahead for the day. I think most players will feel so happy to beat the casino for the day and get the most satsification out of it.

I certainly cannot replace Mr. Dancer's presence here, I feel the site lost some of its good video poker vibe when he decided that a hiatus was what is best, but at least this is something I can do to bring back some of the passion.


I don't play multi line games myself, but I understand their appeal.   I can see how variance is reduced by these games, but isn't your total money at risk also increased? 

Assuming a negative game and as pointed out here the odds on these games are downgraded, doesn't this also increase your long term loses by a factor of the number of hands

played?  Of course Mr. Dancer says he always plays overall positive games, so he assumes he will be a winner.  For your average player, I'm not so sure.  Negative is negative

and more negative just seems to make matters worse.The subject of comps is interesting.  If I played 10 hands at once, it's obvious I would build points 10 times faster.  So

far the only thing I have seen from comps is free parking, hotel rooms and some food.  I'm curious what a casino could give me that would be valuable enough to play 10 hands

at once?   I also assume some multi line players on this forum are betting much more than quarters. 


OMT did outstanding in explaining the bankroll aspects when making equal wagers between single line and multiline games.

As a known fact, the priviledge that Mr. Dancer has over many others is that the places he possibly plays at have multiline games without have reduced payschedules. I have seen some for myself on my visits to Vegas. The games are all negative expectation, so he relies on the other things that the casino offers that will produce a net positive result. The large number of points does make Mr. Dancer a heavy favorite to win casino drawings if there were any, it is determined by him if it is worthwile before playing.

Which leads to my opinion as to why multiline games are so invaluable to Mr. Dancer: "The consistency of results moreso than preserving bankroll"

Mr. Dancer voices a loud opinion that "Today's Score Does Not Matter", however on a lesser scale he mentions his result at the end of the year matters. Around the end of the year and during tax filing season, he invites guests on GWAE who specializes in taxes for winning gamblers. The bottom line is that he has to report at least $1 in winnings to file as a professional gambler and to get the entitled benefits from it (too much to list). Recreational players may have good years or bad years, but playing multiline game extensively helps him reach the game's theoretical result without much fluctuation when the variance is already lowered. Mr. Dancer has his ways to evaluate every casino promotion that comes in the mail, I can evaluate some of them without trouble.

I know single line play is also included, but that might be more of a multi-year ordeal to get things in his favor.

It appears keeping the total amount bet the same as a single line game is the key. I am just very lucky that I found a Bonus Deuces Wild game at Mohegan where I can play a dollar a line and have a 98.8 paytable. It does cost me 3 bucks a whack which isn't cheap, but quite often I was playing 12 or more quarters on a single line game at Mohegan Sun and hitting nothing over the course of the evening. So far, playing this game, I have either made something or broke even for the session. The quad deuces have appeared at some point in the session every time so far. Sometimes even the 5 Aces come in and pay more than the single quad deuce hit for the session. That has bailed me out too. Edited to add....the fact that the casinos reduce the paytables on multi line games at least for me confirms that in the short run, an average player can survive a session much better and not go broke than on a single line game most of the time.

I agree and cannot say enough how great the $1 Bonus Deuces Wild Spin Poker is, though 3 line $1 bets might be more than what you are accustomed to, it can help you earn momentum points quicker to help you stay at Tier 3. The end result however will still average out to 98.8% in the long run. When multiline lowers the variance, it is because it will help mitigate the length/severity of the dry spells where a big hand (Quad Deuces with or without Ace Kicker, Five Aces, Natural Royal) is needed, more chances to hit them if you are dealt some good cards. The drawback to having less severe dry spells is the big winning days are at a smaller amount, which I do not think you would mind. I still recommend only playing with what you feel comfortable losing should there be a losing day.

[FloridaPhil]

[quote=alpax] I certainly cannot replace Mr. Dancer's presence here, I feel the site
lost some of its good video poker vibe when he decided that a hiatus was
what is best, but at least this is something I can do to bring back
some of the passion.[/quote]Great job... informative, openly discussed without drama and explained so even stupid players like me can understand. Thank you!I have seen a few multi line opportunities.  They are rare on the east coast, but I'll be looking out for them.  The last time I was in Colorado I saw some three line NSU deuces games that I should have played.  I'll see if I can find some at Red Rock when we're there in two weeks.

[onemoretry]

Edited to add....the fact that the casinos reduce the paytables on multi line games at least for me confirms that in the short run, an average player can survive a session much better and not go broke than on a single line game most of the time. Reducing paytables on multiline games is not a universal practice. The multiline games I play have paytables just as good as the single line games at those casinos.