Distressing CET VP Stories

[ko king]

[QUOTE=edog743]I just do not get this. You people are convinced the games are rigged but you go and play said machines that are rigged. Are you gluttons for punishment? Or do you have dumb F*** tattooed on your forehead? You say the casino is cheating you yet you go back you only have yourself to blame.
 
Funny how NO ONE, not even tedlark, on this forum has a problem with the above post, its tone, its implications, its spirit, etc.......
 
 
Truth is edog, YOU are the one being what you described with this ridiculous OVERSIMPLIFIED INNACCURATE representation of the issue and what Ko King and Myself and others have been saying, particularly about AC.   And if you do not even PLAY in AC EVER, then even more shame on you.....and furthermore, the implication of your post is that YOU MUST ALWAYS WIN AND NEVER LOSE, unlike the rest of us who honestly report our experiences no matter how abysmal.   Is that it?   Your always WIN, or make a profit?    Hose down your pants with flame retardant material before you answer that question dude......
 
 
First off, KO KING, you are entirely correct in your statement that it was about 4 years ago, Spring 2009, that Atlantic City VP REALLY started to fall apart and return percentages plunged from what the paytables suggest all the way down into the low 90s or worse (slot machine territory.)   That is exactly what my records and play show and what I have been reporting all along.....and in my research and quest for understanding and answers, when AC casinos REALLY started getting into financial trouble in 2008-2009 as the recession persisted and competition kept gobbling up their business, in desperation they started looking for ways to get blood out of the rocks they were left with......one such rock existed in the form of their gaming regs calling Video Poker a form of "SLOT" machine.    Since slots are only required to return 83%, little by little they have been setting their VP machines (not all of them but a significant portion, perhaps as many as 50% of total inventory) to return percentages far below the expected 97-98% that most paytables imply.
 
At first (for about two years) I did not want to believe this and just assumed all the 8/5 Bonus Poker (99.37%) I was playing that was giving me 90-91% was just a Bad run or ****ty luck......then others close to me reported the same results, I started looking further into it, talking to anyone I could find, including the NJ gaming folks, all the while still playing to see if the results would even out like you;d expect.   I only found FAR more evidence that AC treats its VP like slots, and that when you sit down at any given VP machine, you do not know what it will return.....it may be the paytable, or it may be far less.   Only way to know is play a LONG TIME......and as far as I can tell, this is Legal/acceptable business practice under current NJ regs, no matter how much VMAN wants to tell us it is NOT.   NO ONE AT NJ GAMING has ever told me that it is WRONG for a video Poker machine (aka SLOT machine) to return a percentage as low as 83%, no matter how I phrase the question or how many times I ask it.....they always use vague nebulous terms like "it falls within acceptable range for a gaming machine blah blah blah", same spiel the casino management at Trump, Trop, Resorts and elsewhere likes to spill......
 
Yet, as I stated before EDOG, in the last 4-5 months I have indeed greatly curtailed my VP play in AC.    Still doesnt excuse your disrespectful rant.   [/QUOTE]
That 83% return may come into play far more than we know and I'll tell you why if I didn't already mention this in a previous post. I had never paid the least bit of attention to regulations concerning video poker nor slots until a few years ago. The first time I had ever heard the 83% figure was when I was told they ran test on the vp machines and they were all but a couple of lower denomination machines operating within the curve, when I inquired as to what the "curve" was I was told between 83-99.9% payback. Now someone is free to explain as to how any video poker game could possibly be returning as little as 83% over a long period of time, I can't understand how it could happen even if the machine was subjected to the worst vp players in the world.

[olds442jetaway]

  I apologize olds, I had erroneously got you mixed up with another poster here. I know you and I have never been sideways with each other and again, I apologize. In that vein,have a Happy Thanksgiving.


No biggy Ted, but thanks. Now, lets all get some nice hits on our next session!

[Tedlark]

Deal.

[DaBurglar]

Ko king, I cannot tell you how glad I am you have bothered to post about your AC experiences and what you have learned, because at least you validate to a large extent what I have seen and reported.   at least others here now know it is NOT just me and some warped perception problem concerning AC.To answer your last sentence/question, how do the VP machines in AC that are "within the curve" of 83 to 99% actually return percentages in the range of, say, 83 to 90% when the paytables displayed IMPLY a return of 97 or 98 percent or higher????    Answer:   The way it has been explained to me, and what I know about the workings and functionality of NON-server based VP machines, is that the casino simply accesses the user menu/options that each machine comes equipped with, and sets it to deal a higher percentage of random "zero value/dud" hands.     Under normal circumstances, a VP machine that is left alone (i.e. like they are in Vegas) will customarily deal about 55% No value hands......during my years in vegas and Reno (1992 thru 2009) this is exactly what I saw:   54.4% of ALL my hands (several MILLION total hands I recorded and accrued over this 18 year period in Nevada) were duds, or no value hands, exactly what you'd expect.In AC however, over a 4-plus year period and hand totals approaching 1 million, my dud rate currently exceeds 67%.....furthermore, a casino management person, and a slot tech, related to me exactly what I am describing to you, that they can, and do, set some VP machines, regardless of what game you choose (i.e. Deuces, JOB, DDB etc) to simply deal more crap.....it is still totally random, just more random "crap".    If you think that doesnt make sense, you are forgetting, again, that in AC, VP machines are "slot" machines!SO, with a VP machine set to deal, say zero value/dud hands at 63% instead of being left alone to deal the expected 55%, you see how this results in the overall VP machine's return percentage to the player being dragged down, over time/ the long haul.      And that last point is important to remember, "the long haul".....these AC machines that have been set to deal more busted hands can still go through stretches where they seemingly get "hot", where you still catch some premium quads and even Royals.   Thus, a player may in the short term see and suspect NOTHING out of the ordinary:   They will be like I was the first two years, oblivious and assuming that VP in AC was just like VP in Vegas.     Until you play for a long time and keep good records, and compare the results with other markets and other periods, as well as take note of other players, you never can draw a accurate conclusion.And with respect to these posters here who berate me/us for playing such "rigged" games, they fail to account for the fact as I said that this all takes TIME, lots of TIME, and it is something that is tough to swallow/believe and draws a lot of skepticism and Ire from fellow players.When I first reported my suspicions about AC (I didnt have enough to form my CONCLUSIONS yet), I was told by MANY people here that I was being shortsighted and  that I was simply the victim of bad luck and "randomness", and that eventually my numbers and results would change for the better.     I accepted this advice for a little while and kept playing, but it reached the point where the AC results were so STARK and abysmally different, I could not ignore or deny or rationalize away the conclusion that I NOW hold regarding HOW vp works in much of (but not ALL) Atlantic City .AGain, as Roveer has reported and a few others, there appears to be some VP in AC that is what we expect, that is simply set up "Vegas Style" or Nevada Style, without any deviation from straightforward setup.   You just cannot be sure until or unless you actually play any given VP machine in an AC casino for a good period of time.   Do you understand now Ko King?   Do you have anything to add or expand upon?

[olds442jetaway]

I think this " dud " rate in Ct. too partially accounts for my Martingale Clone method (just a slowed down version) not working in the long term in Ct. I can play it on this site and do fine. ( I have to use a calculator though because of the 5 unit max bet allowed on the site). A bit cumbersome, but a major difference on how many units I must bet. In Ct., I run up against the max 25 unit bet all the time due to lots of dud hands. Not unusual at all to see 20-30 dud hands on JOB. It is rare on this site. Could this be coincidence? Maybe. But why for just the last 4 years and not for the 17 years before that. Anyway, everyone enjoy today and give thanks for all of us waking up on the "right side of the grass."

[Tedlark]

  DaBurglar in the last 4 years of your playing video poker in AC have you ever had a handpay within a short period of time at the start of your play? It doesn't even need to be a hand pay, have you hit for atleast 2,000 credits in your first hour of play? Or even a shorter period of time in case you do not sit in front of a particular machine for hours at a time?

[DaBurglar]

handpay???   VERY RARE, I steadfastly stick to playing only 25 cent denomination as my primary denom, so typically unless I hit a progressive over 1200 I do not require handpays. Rarely will I play nickels or dollars, it has to be a really speical exceptional reason.... Nonetheless, I did hit a couple 25 cent progressives in January 2011 that both Jussssst exceeded the 1200 dollar threshold so I needed a handpay......one was at the trop, one was at resorts.    The trop hit came after one hour of play and about 500 hands, I was almost even when it hit.    Resorts hit in January 2011 came after 3 hours of play and I was down over 300 bucks!    Since then I have not hit squat at either place.  I have hit 25 cent, 1000 buck, royals (about 6) in AC, but the vast majority came during my first two years, 2009-2011,  and 4 of the six were on the caesars 5 star dreamcard/quick quad single line game in 2011 during the first month the machines were up and running.....it is the concensus of myself and several friends who played those 5 star machines that Caesars had the return percentage jacked UP high the first couple months, because we hit a lot during May 2011, but since then, those machines have been sickeningly unfulfilling.   Oooops, I take one thing back......In 2011 at xmas, I did get a hand pay on a dollar royal at Trop in their high roller section......4000 bucks.    I forgot about that because it was a total accident.     I was blabbing with a friend, and I wanted to consolidate a heap of small tickets into one big one, and we were sitting in the trop high roller area.    I hit deal by mistake on 9/5 JOB, and got a full house......hit deal again, got 2 pair, then hit deal and got three to a royal, hit draw and got the royal.    total fluke, but sure, I was really happy.  Apparently, like most high roller areas, the casinos tend to leave those machines alone for obvious reasons, kinda like the High denom ($1 and up) SLOTS generally return 94-95%  or higher, while penny and nickely slots return 88%, etc.      Plus six months after my monster hit,  I put 300 bucks into the same machine just to try it out, and it ate my money in 10 minutes, gave me almost nada   lol

[Tedlark]

  The point I was trying to make is that if you hit a nice payout early in a session and if the payout puts you up then you are above the 83% payback rate that, under your assumption, AC casinos have most of their video poker set to payback. By your own admission above, you were beating the payback percentages. Remember the adage from the movie "Casino"? The secret is to keep them playing and then we will eventually get it all.

[Vman96]

Oooops, I take one thing back......In 2011 at xmas, I did get a hand pay on a dollar royal at Trop in their high roller section......4000 bucks.    I forgot about that because it was a total accident.     I was blabbing with a friend, and I wanted to consolidate a heap of small tickets into one big one, and we were sitting in the trop high roller area.    I hit deal by mistake on 9/5 JOB, and got a full house......hit deal again, got 2 pair, then hit deal and got three to a royal, hit draw and got the royal.    total fluke, but sure, I was really happy.

Considering all you post, I'm shocked you admitted this. Posting for posterity here.

[Tedlark]

  Speaking of "dud rates" I heard a line in the Clint Eastwood movie titled "Trouble with the Curve." Justin Timberlake's character says that a batter, to achieve that magical .300 batting average number, fails to get a hit 7 out of 10 times.