casino integrity

[notes1]

Would suggest all read OTABILL post on different thread, about 'gaming regulation'. Lengthy but informative. Some of what i got out of it;-fairness and random- different to many of us as opposed to mathematcians and regulators   -casinos and manufactures have the money and the incentive to use technology to their advantage. Even in the case of 'near misses' being programmed into games, that had the effect of getting gamblers to play longer (and lose more), when regulators argued it was unfair, the casinos argued back. Eventually, the regulators decided against the 'near miss' program, but simply made the casinos/manufacturers correct that part of the program. No mention of penalities/fines or loss of license was mentioned. Even when they are caught doing something, the cost is no where near the benefit. -just like wall street regulators, gaming regulators are often behind the times/technology. -as i read the piece, one of the author's conclusions were that the regulators/legislators are simply outguned and under educated to compete against an industry that employs a large number of mathematicians and computer experts. Elected officials have no idea what a small percentange change in odds can affect the bottom line of a game. Again, their only interest is the government getting their cut. With many casino jurisdictions having only one casino , there is no checks/balances/competition to protect the customer. 

[BillyJoe]

Would suggest all read OTABILL post on different thread, about 'gaming regulation'. Lengthy but informative. No mention of penalities/fines or loss of license was mentioned. Even when they are caught doing something, the cost is no where near the benefit.
Sorry, but not true. Re-read the article, and pay attention to the footnotes. They mention the criminal and license consequences.

[notes1]

Sorry, but, i am not wrong. If you re-read my post, i am addressing the case of the 'near miss' incident.  I have read through the entire piece 3 times, including footnotes. In this specific case, the regulators only requirement was the manufacturers and casinos had to retro-fit the machines to remove the near miss feature. NO penalities or fines or loss of license was mentioned. Even though the manufacturers and casinos were eventually ruled against, how much money do you think they made by tinkering with the machines? Are their criminal/lcense penalities mentioned for rule violations, of course. But, as i mentioned, the manufactures and the casinos have the money and the incentives to search out areas they can exploit. Regulators are always going to be behind the eight ball.   

[BillyJoe]

Sorry, but, i am not wrong. If you re-read my post, i am addressing the case of the 'near miss' incident.  I have read through the entire piece 3 times, including footnotes. In this specific case, the regulators only requirement was the manufacturers and casinos had to retro-fit the machines to remove the near miss feature. NO penalities or fines or loss of license was mentioned. Even though the manufacturers and casinos were eventually ruled against, how much money do you think they made by tinkering with the machines? Are their criminal/lcense penalities mentioned for rule violations, of course. But, as i mentioned, the manufactures and the casinos have the money and the incentives to search out areas they can exploit. Regulators are always going to be behind the eight ball.   
Sorry for any mis-understanding. In the case of near-misses, though, there was no payout change in the outcome, so why would there have been a criminal or license issue?

In the end, the regulators put a stop to near-misses anyway. I am glad that they didn't also rule against flashing lights, loud machine noises, wacky slot themes or pretty cocktail waitresses. All of those seem to also be designed to get you to stay and play longer.   

[notes1]

bj, thanks for the reply. There were no laws broken, because no laws/rules existed at the time for this specific event. They were not attempting to increase their take per spin, they were just trying to keep one in the building longer. As we all know, the longer one plays, the more one is likely to lose. They were forced to adjust the machines because the near miss feature was misleading. A casino will do anything to keep you playing and most anything to gain an advantage.  Unless, of course, if you are winning big or counting cards. Then, they will escort you out.

[DaBurglar]

I've been gone for a while (more on that later)......wow did this thread blow up like a stay at home mom eating nothing but bon bons for a year....I've lost just what exactly the primary point of focus is for this thread (there seem to be many)......I do know I seem to agree and disagree with every other post by billyjoe (well done william ha ha!)   Billyjoe is correct about the whole "super sonic speed" of machines these days having a adverse impact on the average player's session.   That's intuitive and obviously so, and he explains it well, but I dont quite agree with the "math" explanation, the whole 1 in 47 spiel that has been beaten to death by now.......I would side with V-man's point of view on that, even though he thinks I hacked billyjoe somehow (wtf VMAN, when did you start believing in the gospel of doris? )Anyhoo hoo hoo, I think my view has been validated,  that a majority of VP players (recreational, habitual, professional or otherwise) have seen winnings fall, losses rise and overall cost rise as comps fall too.....since around 2007 or so.......I think Tedlark is fortunate to NOT have experienced this, although why this is the case is known only to him (perhaps his skill, perhaps his luck, or whatever???)     My last point here is this:   I agree 100% with "notes":  The risk for a casino who manages to get CAUGHT actually doing something that flatout violates gaming regs on a large scale is ephemeral.....it exists on paper but, as I have been saying for years now, does not exist in the same vein "IN THE REAL WORLD" and how these things playout and get processed.   But its really a moot point because, as notes says, when has a casino actually had this happen?   I do not know for certain exactly which casinos are cheating, if they are cheating, and how they are cheating....I have lots of ideas and theories, but no solid irrefutable proof.....no one does.   And that is really the point....a casino really would have to a be a special kind of stupid to actually get caught cheating.   I think it would be easy for a casino to cheat for a short period of time, and perhaps this is how they get away with it in part.....But....if you really walk the whole process through about HOW a casino, that manages to get CAUGHT cheating, would be handled, the real world scenario that results would in all likelihood merely involve a very hush hush penalty being paid by the guilty casino, with no one losing a license or anything even remotely as serious.....the cost and ramifications are just too high, and the possible court cases and litigation too long and drawn out and costly.    State gaming boards are there to protect BOTH customers and the casinos (i.e. the state's interests)    NO STATE would knowingly slit its own throat by clobbering even the guiltiest casino.....instead that would work out some quiet below the radar solution.    That's the real world we live in.....

[Tedlark]

Here we go again.

[DaBurglar]

Here we go again.yeah, well I know I've asked you this before so I'll do it again:  LAY it out for us ted.   Start with scenario like "casino in otherwise depressed gaming market (like AC or Biloxi or anywhere except Vegas) decides to juke some of its machines, and SOMEHOW the gaming regulators for that gaming area/market find out."How do you realistically think it plays out?  It's just conjecture as we all have arleady noted because as far as we know, this has not really happened yet, at least not since the days Lefty rosenthal and Tony the Ant left vegas.....I mean they'd just shoot the nosy gaming agent and bury him in the desert.

[Tedlark]

  You again bring up the spectre of casinos cheating. Why? As people have pointed out here, what purpose are you serving by continually bringing this up? If you aren't happy with casinos and/or you think something is amiss; DON'T PLAY. What is it with your constant need to feel validation on one of your screwball theories? Were you this needy as a child? Your mother must be plumb tuckered out.   I wasn't the only one who said that things have been about the same for me video poker wise in the last few years but yet you felt the need to single me out.    You keep mentioning the word "we" and using this term would mean; collectively as a group and I don't think "we" all have noted, as you so erroneously point out.   I don't think Frank Rosenthal ever shot someone and buried them in the desert.

[shadowman]

If one goes back into the archives they can find other threads just like this one. In fact, I've heard the same line for years and years ... "the casinos don't pay back like they used to". Funny how players that started playing even after others have made this comment are now making similar comments. Do machines recognize new players and give them better results? That's what you have to believe to think this is planned.

Or, just maybe, a certain set of people have better than average luck when they start playing. These people are the ones most likely to return to casinos as they won money. At some point their luck runs out and they are getting average to bad luck. That's when they start to doubt the honesty of the casinos.