Random? I don't think so.

[FloridaPhil]

An AP taunting regular players by thanking them for losing in a casino so he can win is what I am talking about.   This is pure arrogance.    My son's company provides high level IT and cloud services to financial institutions.  This would be like him calling up a bank's CEO to thank him for being too stupid to administer his own network.   I can hear it now "Thank you for being a dumb ass.  I just raised your rates!"  APs do things to make money that is totally outside the game of VP.   Counting drawing wins as profit is a good example.   I keep looking on the machines for the "enter drawing" button, but I haven't found one.   This confuses players into thinking APs beat the game itself when they are actually beating the comp system.  To his credit, I will say "Mr. Dancer" goes out of his way to discuss this fact.   I have no problem with how APs make their living, but they should be clear when it comes to beating the game itself so they don't lead people to think they are owed a profit.

[markinca]

Counting drawing wins as profit is a good example.   I keep looking on the machines for the "enter drawing" button, but I haven't found one.   This confuses players into thinking APs beat the game itself when they are actually beating the comp system.


You do realize that for many of these drawings, the more coin-in you put in, the greater chance you have to win, right? If you don't play at all, you'd likely have virtually no chance to win. This is part of the game.

If you play at a time when there are no drawings, your theoretical profit is less than if you play at a time when there are drawings. Why shouldn't this count as part of your VP proceeds? It's essentially like an additional jackpot that increases your overall edge.

[FAA]

Well isn't that a kick in the butt? If you can't win at Red Rock Vegas, where can you?!

[FloridaPhil]

Where does this leave a player who plays at a casino that doesn't hold lucrative drawings?

[Vman96]

Where does this leave a player who plays at a casino that doesn't hold lucrative drawings?

Don't play, or accept the fact that this particular casino has losing VP and play with an entertainment budget he or she is comfortable with.

[FAA]

If the machines had an Entries tally along with their proprietary credits tally, they'd probably do even more business! I always marvel at the Seven Star jackpot winners who shrug their hit off and go right on playing at adjacent machines or resume at the JP site hoping to strike lightning twice! Addiction Exhibit A, I submit. We can argue the semantics till the Royals come home.

[Waiting4RF]

Eduardo, I was laughing out loud while reading your last post. Thanks!

[FloridaPhil]

The Stories Forum is not the place to discuss this issue.  The original poster stated he believes the games are rigged.  I said I believe the games are fair.  However, I can see why he would draw that conclusion.  Video Poker is the "lost leader" of casino marketing.  A lost leader is a sales offer that is used to entice buyers into a place of business.  For example, a 36" flat screen TV for $99.  Everyone knows you can't beat a slot machine.  The term "one armed bandit" is as old as the machines themselves.  A video poker machine is a slot machine.  The casino uses marketing to convince you it's not.  They invented a video poker strategy called "Advantage Play".  This strategy is promoted through books, CDs, software and high profile gambling celebrities.  The premise of this strategy is that you can beat the casinos with skill and math.   Like the $99 TV, it's there to sell you on the casino as a place you want to go.What is needed is a new book not written by casino promoters.  This book should be not be about beating the casinos.  It's title should be "How to Keep the Casino From Beating You".  You may not agree with this book.  It should be written for average players who play in average casinos, not Vegas APs.   Successful professional players don't need a book.  They have already figured out how to navigate their own gambling challenges or they won't be successful.I am moving my comments to the Recreational Forum where this issue can be discussed without monopolizing the Stories Forum.  If you don't think my comments are helpful, don't read them.  If you disagree with me, you are free to be part of the discussion.

[markinca]

1) First, it's 'loss leader' not 'lost leader'.

2) How you of all people can make the case that VP is a loss leader is beyond comprehension. You do realize what a loss leader is, right? It's a product sold at a loss to try to get more butts in the door into your store (or casino, in this case). Yes, a store selling a big-screen tv at $99 is a loss leader, since they probably only have 1 or 2 of those tv's available at that price, but that sale will get people into the store.

But how the heck can VP be a loss leader? To complete this analogy, this would mean that casinos lose money overall on VP but it's worth it because it attracts more gamblers. In one breath you say that casinos win all your money in VP, and then in this insane example you're implying that they're taking a loss. Which is it?

Obviously unless this casino is offering only 100+% VP games/plays and unless ALL of their VP players are APs, a casino losing money on VP is virtually impossible.

3) Exactly what would be in a book called "How to keep the casino from beating you?" A chapter about playing single-coin VP? A chapter about switching games when it feels right? A chapter about upping your bets when you're on a hot streak? To say that this book would be more useful than a Dancer book is completely idiotic and frankly just factually incorrect. In fact, this book might be one of the most dangerous and harmful books out there, were it published.

[FloridaPhil]

I didn't say my book would be more useful than a book by "Bob Dancer". If Bob would address some of these issues, we wouldn't need another book. Bob is not going to talk about playing negative VP games other than to tell people not to play them. He does not get paid when he promotes cheap play. He gets paid when he talks about playing games that average players can't play. I would be willing to bet 99% or more of the players that view this website have never seen a positive VP game. They are going to play these games despite his warnings to the contrary.

Bob does a great job when it comes to positive game strategy. He does nothing to help players at the bottom on the VP food chain. Why should he? Because he could help them to lose less money. Who is going to pay him to do that?

Playing VP like you have an advantage when you don't is expensive. Playing VP knowing there will be a cost is smart.